Blue Grit Radio Interviews Jared Altic and Matt Domyancic - Bonus Ep 52

This is a special bonus episode of Hey Chaplain and we're giving you a replay of Episode 319 of the Blue Grit Radio podcast by Eric Tung.  In this episode Eric interviews chaplains Jared Altic and Matt Domyancic about police wellness and various chaplain related topics, including some of the problems helpers have when engaging police culture and what a chaplain's chief motivation needs to be.

Music is by Jessie Villa.

Hey Chaplain podcast Bonus Episode 52

Tags:

Police, Chaplains, Culture, Expectations, Health, Helpers, Ride Alongs, Wellness, California, Kansas, Washington

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SPEAKER_01 0:02

Welcome to the Hey Chaplin Podcast. My name is Jared Altic, and I'm a chaplain with the police department. This is a special bonus episode of Hey Chaplin, and I'm going to replay an episode of another podcast, the Blue Grit Radio Podcast by Eric Tung. Eric gave me special permission to replay this episode from just a few months ago. And I'm going to do that for a few reasons. First of all, the work that Eric Tongue is doing is fantastic. And I really want you to be aware of Blue Grit Radio. And I think that it's a nice compliment to Hey Chaplin. It's a little bit different kind of police officer wellness podcast. It has its own unique voice, and I really think that it's worth your time. My second reason is that not only am I on the podcast, but also Matt Domiensk, who you know from several episodes of Hey Chaplin, Matt and I both are being interviewed. And I love to give you the opportunity to hear from Matt Domiensk. My third reason is also because of Matt. I love to censor when Matt swears on the podcast. And so here's at least a couple opportunities for me to bleep him out. And I just find that amusing. So without any further ado, here's a recent episode of Blue Grit Radio. It is trimmed down for content and time, and so it just is a little bit shorter than the original version. But I encourage you to go over and find Blue Grit Radio online, anywhere that you get your podcast, find that and start listening to Eric's content. He is prolifically putting out content, and I want you to hear what he has to say. Here's Eric Tung, Matt Domiensk, and me, Jared Altic.

SPEAKER_00 1:52

Welcome back, everyone. I'm excited to feature this chaplain-focused episode. And for those that are like, well, I'm not a chaplain, or you know, I don't really work with chaplains, like it's really to bring in this multi-prong conversation because chaplains, as they work alongside first responders and police, have a very unique perspective. Um, so we're gonna talk about from two expert chaplains. We're gonna talk about the chaplaincy, like what makes programs effective. We're gonna talk about what cops want from chaplains for those that do work alongside. And I've heard absolutely fantastic stories I've seen up up front, and personally, fantastic chaplaincy partnerships with first responders and police. And I've also heard kind of the horror stories of you know, chaplains just not being effective for let's say a policing mission and or for police personnel uh or fire personnel. And then we're also just kind of gonna riff and integrate some insights from both of these veteran uh chaplains and you know many other hats they both wear. But uh just want to welcome uh Jared and Matt. So uh returning guests, Matt Don Jensig. We'll start with you. Could you please give yourself a little intro? And I'm gonna confine you to a couple minutes because your resume could probably span like 45, an hour, maybe more. I take a whole hour to talk about talk about Matt.

SPEAKER_02 3:13

Former police officer, patrol SWAT, peer support, police academy instructor, former strength conditioning coach, Yale, Georgetown, strength coach and sports psych at a private facility in LA for NFL Combine, other elite athletes. And for many years, very, very active chaplain in Los Angeles with uh Torrance, PD, South Central Los Angeles, LA Sheriff's Department, and helping psychologists that are contracted with many other police and fire agencies, integrating chaplaincy with wellness and peer support. So proactive, cold plunge, sauna, breath work, float tank. And also, I'm a little different than I used to ride all the time, graveyard shifts behind the cage and do a lot of lifting and shooting and taking cops on retreats and training with them to build relationships proactively.

SPEAKER_00 4:07

Love it. Thank you, Matt. And Jared, I'm I'm very fortunate to have been able to meet you and hop on your podcast relatively recently, Hey Chaplin, right? The Hey Chaplain podcast. And uh, and I will just throw out before I turn it over to you for your introduction. Um as I was uh kind of conceiving this idea, I was like, you know what, two chaplains would be really cool to offer this really grounded but holistic perspective, uh, this really practical perspective, but very different dudes. And it turns out you guys know each other super well. Um, so I maybe it's just meant to be pretty fantastic.

SPEAKER_01 4:42

Yeah, I went out to California to see Matt for his birthday. And so, so yeah, we do know each other well.

SPEAKER_00 4:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:48

My name is Jared Altic. I'm a chaplain in Kansas City, and I'm the outsider. I am not prior law enforcement, I'm not prior military, I do not have that background at all. I am a complete, you know, coming from a completely different point of view. But I have been a minister in a church for 30 years, and so I have a lot of experience counseling people. I've had cops and firefighters in my church that entire time, and military families. And so I've learned a lot about uh what those families need and what those individuals need and how their jobs are different than anybody else's. And that's developed, I've developed a great respect for that. And so eventually it led to me becoming a police chaplain. And as a police chaplain, I am embedded in the patrol divisions. And so even though I'm a volunteer, I do 150 to 180 roll calls every year. I'm out in the car doing ride-alongs. I'm involved, I recognize my officers. I've got about in our departments, probably about 350 sworn, but my patrol officers, I recognize them out of uniform when I see them in the grocery store. And they know me by name and I know them by name. And I am developing this rapport so that when they or their families need some kind of help or assistance or encouragement, I'm one of the tools in the toolbox. I'm somebody who I know what it's like to do their job because I've been with them while they've done it. I know their supervisors, I know their situation, and and I've gone out of my way. I'm kind of autodidactic. I teach myself stuff. And so I have jumped in with both feet to learn everything I can about police officers. And I'm committed. I've been here 10 years. I hope I'm here another 20 years. My big, hairy, audacious goal is that I have officers that I teach at the police academy. I teach things like death notifications and that sort of stuff. I'll have officers that I teach that they'll go through a 25-year career, and I will have been their patrol chaplain the entire career. That's my big goal.

SPEAKER_00 6:56

It's fantastic. I mean, you think about resource and leadership and mentorship. And this is literally a conversation I was having with a buddy yesterday, and he was uh, we were talking about a local teacher and this like program at the high school, and he was like, dude, I had that teacher, right? Like through another circle. And you think about these people that really stand out in your lives, and like, why not be that that guiding mentor coach, uh, which absolutely the chaplaincy can be. And I love how we're just jumping into it, because even in your introduction, you hit on a lot of things that highlight what come to my mind, and I know come to Matt's mind, because we've talked about this before. But like, what makes an effective program? And you said a lot of things. You said the the embedded nature, and as an in my head, I was like, okay, I want him to explain that. And you did. You talk about how you were embedded in the patrol division all the ride-alongs. You know your people, they know you. And then that just goes with any team is building trust through time, experience, connection. I love that. Thank you, Jared. Matt, I'm gonna turn it to you to keep going on that.

SPEAKER_02 8:02

So, I mean, stereotype. Well, first of all, let's let everybody know being a chaplain is not about pushing religiosity, churchianity, or Bible thumping. Technically, it's a ministry of presence. Lemon vs. Kurtzman, Supreme Court case. A lot of chaplains and psychologists involved with peer support above chaplains do not understand this. So even as a former cop, I've been introduced as a chaplain during a briefing, a roll call, and people haul ass out of there like it's got like it's an active shooter. And say in Torrance, for instance, that happened, but then another sergeant on another briefing goes, Hey, I know Matt. We did Cromagon Wee Tie together 10 years ago. He's a former SWAT guy, strength coach, football player. People turn around and start dropping F-bombs. Hey man, where'd you work? What's going on? But there's a this stereotype of whatever the worst hypocritical religiosity and church person you've met or seen on TV is what chaplaincy is about. And it's not, it's ecumenical, which is if if you say if you're a Christian, it's about what you have in common with all Christians, it's inner faith. It's us holding space, technically, it should be. It's us as a chaplain holding space for you where you are, even if you're an agnostic, an atheist, a Muslim, a Sikh, a Hindu, or spiritual, but not religious. So there's a lot of misconceptions about what it's about. And then there's often community chaplains, not patrol chaplains, that love wearing the me and Jared joke about this chaplain in huge letters across their chest, their hat. They want to wear a dorky uniform, they'll fight over who gets to pray at a police event, and they want to bring donuts and hang out with the chief or the sheriff or command staff. So all the patrol people are like there's this elderly, out of shape person that brings donuts only when they come to pray at an event or after a critical incident, and then they want to pray and their religiosity language or vocabulary, and they make me uncomfortable. And they're not doing anything for me except every once in a while, maybe they'll respond to the community versus a patrol chaplain is dedicated to serving the cops andor the firefighters. And the only way you can do that is proactively, not reactively, not just be part of the Sism Mitchell model. I show up afterwards, after a shooting, you have no idea who I am, plus you have all these religious stereotypes, and all it takes is one chaplain to wear the dorky uniform or the big chaplain badges, and then talk in a way that makes say if I'm a Baptist pastor and you're an episcopal and I come in swinging with Baptist language, like you're gonna be like, dude, this is awkward and weird, even though we're both Christian, and then you're gonna tell all your buddies, like, I don't want to deal with this guy. So there's patrol chaplains, community chaplains, proactive versus reactive, and then how many people are actually trained in chaplaincy or something called spiritual direction? And that's where it's not about me and my theology, it's about you and wherever you are with your values in life, whether you're religious or not. And I'll stop there in case Jared wants to add anything or you want to ask a question.

SPEAKER_01 11:17

Yeah, we'll go to Jared. Yeah, let me elaborate on the reactive versus proactive. Um, it's good to have a chaplain who can do both. It's wonderful to be able to have an angry crowd at the yellow tape and to be able to grab a chaplain who is not wearing a full tactical uniform and is a civilian and is embedded in the community to help de-escalate things, to be a liaison even between the community and the department. There are lots of ways to use a chaplain on a scene to do death notifications, to interact with the public, do crisis counseling in a moment, just to get the person from the actual scene, if they're the victim of a crime or the family member of the victim of a crime, to get them from the scene to their long-term help. Lots of chaplains are trained counselors, and it's great to use them in the community. But what gets neglected, and what really Matt's specialty and my specialty is, is the other thing. That the one is reactive. We want to see proactive, embedded chaplains who are engaged with their first responders in a in a sheriff's office, a fire department, police department. We want these guys building, men and women, building rapport with those officers so that they have that connection and that there's one more way to get that officer to a healthier place with the physical health, mental health, spiritual health. We want the whole person to be moved into a healthier place. So this job doesn't wear them down and destroy them. And the problem is a lot of our first responders, they go to maybe the family doctor and they start talking about, you know, yeah, I worked an accident and, you know, the person's head was completely smashed flat and their blood and brains everywhere. They hear that kind of thing, and the doctor's not prepared and reacts badly. And then the first responder learns, okay, I can't share what I've seen with anybody. And so we need to put people who understand trauma and trauma-informed care, and maybe have been there and they've seen the stuff and they've smelt the stuff themselves. We need to put those helpers with our officers, and a chaplain is well positioned to do that. Uh, I've done funerals for 30 years and I've I've worked homicide scenes and accident scenes, I've been on dead baby calls, I've I've done that, I've smelled that. I just had a I just had a decomp call the other day. Some poor guy died in front of a space heater and no one found him for a week. Do you just, if you've not smelt that, you don't know. But I have, and my officers have, and we understand that we've had this shared experience. And in that shared experience, we have camaraderie, we have support for one another, and that kind of support can be really hard to find. That has to be worked on proactively. You have to get in there. And a lot of counselors, a lot of clinicians, they don't have time. They're working in their office. They don't have time to get out and be with our officers like some chaplains can. And so there's a special niche where a chaplain can fill that role and be effective and provide a type of support that some officers would want. I also want to comment. Matt said that, you know, it's not like an active shooter. You get introduced as a chaplain, like, ah, religious person. Most of my cops would rather face an active shooter than deal with a religious person. Okay. A lot of them are 25 years old. They're not going to church right now. Uh, maybe they did in the past, maybe they didn't, but they do not want to get hit over the head with a Bible. A chaplain that doesn't understand that kind of sensitivity will destroy their reputation with those officers. You can go to a police station and you can stand up on a chair and preach the gospel one time, and then you will lose all your privileges, you will lose all the respect that they won't trust you anymore. Because if anybody, if anybody can see an ulterior motive coming from a mile away, it's a cop. Okay. They're used to people lying to them. They're they're naturally cynical. They will see your ulterior motive. You're just there to try to promote your religion or to try to get people to go to your church. They will sniff that out from a thousand miles away. They will never trust you. And they might not trust any other chaplain for a long time. So if there's if there's a chaplain listen to this, I just asked, hey, be careful before you go and make a mistake that's going to cost all of us.

SPEAKER_00 15:52

Yeah. You've both said a lot, and I would encourage the listeners to go back because uh we came out, you know, proverbial guns ablazing, because you you all have a lot of opinions, but what I like about both approaches is that, you know, although some people might get uncomfortable with some things they heard, we're like, well, that's not what I see in Chapman C or that's not what I think. It's like the thing that I hear in this commonality is is what is the goal? And what I hear in both respects is the goal is support. The goal is help and health, the goal is openness and developing trust. And so to break down a little bit of that, if we don't know what the goal is, then we don't know what we're doing anyway, right? That's the start. And then you have some of the the how do you achieve health and connection and trust is you have to embed, you have to invest. You don't just get to show up. And so although people may get defensive just because it's human nature, this is not a dog on clinicians that don't have the the schedule or the resource or the bandwidth or the design to be embedded, or chaplains that maybe don't, right? And I like how Jared, you kind of broke up a difference between those that are embedded and those that are in the community. And I also like how you highlighted there's an extreme value of those that are in the community, right? It's not us them. This is I can liaise with the community, they know me, they trust me, and I'm trying to bring this commonality because I've seen scenes like that where the the crowd, the community, they're at odds with those inside the yellow tape and they're on the outside of the yellow tape. And it's because there's distrust, there's there's a lack of investment in relationships. So knowing what the goal is, we can assess like what is the best response. And maybe for larger agencies and regions, you find a way to develop both. And there are some people that are really good in one role and some people that are really good in the other, and some that are a little bit better as hybrids. Uh, but yeah, rather than just shoot your shot in all directions uh like a spray, like let's identify what is the goal, what are we trying to address here?

SPEAKER_02 17:52

I could throw out a couple things. And I also want to share a story because it came up when you were talking, is that South LA, the sheriff's department, they thought I was an undercover federal agent because there are not chaplains or psychologists riding along. So I was told, hey, their midnight grade yard shift, which is called earlies, is not the rookies and the seniors that don't want to work, which it was traditionally in some of the police departments. I was a cop, it's the senior guys that are gun grabbing. They take over 500 guns a year out of a station that has about six cars on the road per shift. So I think they're in the top 10 or 15 police departments, just their station taking guns, illegal guns out of cars. So the they told me to ride the early shift. It's two-man cars, so I had to ride behind the cage, and I did it every Friday, Saturday night for a couple years. And at first, they're like, How much you get paid? I don't. Who are you? Uh, ex-cop, strength coach. They're like, Bullshit. Like this, this guy's an undercover fed for all the shootings we get in because nobody cares about us. And they also said, How come you're not trying to convert us? How come you're not having Bible studies? And the job is a ministry of presence. It's to be a good listener. And if you study post-traumatic growth and other orientations of psychology, as well as contemplative spirituality, it is incredibly healing to share your story with somebody that can see, understand you, not judge you, and not try to fix you or psychopathologize you to hold sacred space for somebody to get something off their chest. So that's a big, that's a big component, I think, is to build the relationship to the point where they share good wins in their life, but then when the marital problems come or the call that really bothers them, they have enough trust to be able to get it off their chest and you hold and listen well. And that takes training. And that's where a lot of the real chaplain, CPE, clinical pastoral education or spiritual direction training takes, or it takes 20 or 30 years of being a very mature pastor like Jared is. So again, it's not about the chaplain's theology or religiosity, it's about them being grounded and holding space to be a good listener after they've developed relationships with these officers proactively.

SPEAKER_01 20:23

Simplify it even more and just say that a good chaplain has to love the officers. And officers are not always very lovable. Uh in fact, uh I've found that most police officers most police officers will push you away to see if you can be pushed away. And so a chaplain walks into the police station for the first time, uh, maybe the first 10 times, and some officers will ratchet up the cursing and and they'll drop an F-bomb, they'll paint the walls with filth to try to scare the chaplain away. Um and and that's like I said, it's a it's an attempt to push you away to see if you can be pushed away. Because frankly, most people can. A lot of people don't want to invest very much to get to know police officers to really understand them. They'll they'll say back the blue, and every every Christmas they'll donate a tub of popcorn to the local patrol station and and you know, they'll they'll make great efforts that that look nice, but they're not very deep. And so are you going to come back again and again and again and again and be there during the mundane and the boring as well as the terrifying? Uh, are you willing to to spend time with those those um frontline officers, not just the commanders? Because it's tough. Most chaplains, I started this when I was in my 40s. I'm I'm in my late 40s now. And and the people my age are all captains and majors. And so, and so if I just gravitate toward the people my age, I'm talking to the Commanders. But I can't do that. And so, and so if I'm going to stay out and spend time with those 25-year-olds, uh, those 30-year-olds, those 35-year-olds, if I'm going to spend time with them, that's going to take a deliberate effort on my part to say they are valuable. They deserve to be sympathized with. They deserve to be heard. They deserve, it's worth spending time. My time with them, if I spend four hours, six hours, eight hours in the car with them, that is just as valuable as getting an audience with the police chief. And you can only do that if you deliberately decide that you love them, even if you don't like them. You're going to choose to love them. If you choose to love them, then you're not going to force yourself on them. You're not going to talk at them. You're going to be interested in knowing what they know and why they feel the way they feel. And you're going to engage them at that level. And very few people do that. And so a chaplain that can learn to love their officers, I don't know how much training they really need. They, they, if you love, you'll make better decisions than if you're being selfish and self-promoting. And Matt and I have both been burned by chaplains who do want to get the chaplain badge and the jacket that says chaplain across the back, which I wear, by the way. But but they that's all they want because they just want that as a way to get breakfast with the mayor. And they want to feel important. Yeah. And they want to be on stage to give the indication at the academy graduation. There's nothing wrong with those things, but wanting those things will get in the way of loving your police officers. That's how I define ministry.

SPEAKER_00 23:46

Yeah. I love that. And I'm going to take a moment to break down some of that because when we started the episode, I wanted, I wanted to get at what cops need to hear from your insights and being there, being at all the death notifications and seeing all the hard calls. Because in my own reflections, I've been to many difficult calls up front and personal. I've been to other where I'm kind of on the periphery, right? I'm I'm not seeing the kid, maybe, but I'm interacting with the mom. And that's really tough too. And I've been the supervisor where I'm trying to check in with the officers. So I'm not really in the mix, but I'm attached to the mix. And then my, you know, continuing circles outwards where you're still concerned, but you're not in it. But I, man, hats off to chaplains that are in there because you're going to all these things. It's just, it's a, it's a medical, it's, you know, it was expected. And I almost said, it's just that's that's someone's family member. That's someone's life, and it's hard, right? And so I've recognized, even as a young cop, to be like, whoo, thank you, chaplain, for showing up because I I I don't have to stay here for the next couple hours, right? Like, you know, I did my part, but I I'm gonna go to other calls, and I would prefer to do that, to be honest. So one is like integrating, how you've both integrated so many things that I hope that the listeners, whether they're a chief or whether they're a rookie, they're hearing these insights and helping them navigate their own process through this job and interacting with all these things. The other thing I really want to focus in on is how you you described, you know, this care and this love. Like that's what mystery is to you. Um, and I think that that goes back to the openness, right? Like I think through my whole life when the the people even that I did not agree with or I just didn't see their point of view, let's call it politics, let's call it religion, let's call it whatever, strong beliefs. Like I was always comfortable around those, even though they were they felt so different to me when I felt like it came from a place of love and care, right? We all know what it feels like to be preached at, whether it's politics or whether it's nutrition or, you know, like whatever workout modality, that that gets kind of cultish, you know, kind of religious too, right? And polarizing, and I know that those that are listening in frequently, that's been one of my biggest themes is like how do we move away from polarization? How do we come to integration? Like, same team, right? Whether you're a chaplain, a rookie, a firefighter, a community member, same team. We all want the same thing. And what is that? That is the wellness of our community. That is the wellness of every individual and group. We want to be better, we want to be safer, we want to be whole. Uh so I love the focusing on that. And then also, I'll just take a moment. I really, it really sat with me when you're talking about how we can try to push others away. And when you said that, I had this visceral remembering of being a younger cynical cop where I was, I did not swear that much. And I started swearing a lot at work because it felt nor normal and cool. But then I started probably overcompensating and injecting it into my my non-cop circles because I'm like, well, I've changed now, and this is how I am. So do you still love me? I didn't think it then, but I think I think that's what was going through my gut and my, you know, a little bit of my soul. And I like the discussion there because I really want us all listening in and participating with these types of discussions to challenge ourselves. Because when I say, yeah, cops aren't lovable too, some people might take that a certain way because I'm admin. No, I'm saying this is how we treat each other, whether you're a five-year cop or whether you're a 30-year veteran retiree, whether you're thinking about yourself because of what you feel you've been exposed to in the job, and not think yourself that lovable, Matt.

SPEAKER_02 27:32

Well, this is all deep stuff, and this is part of my presentation, some of the ones that you're looking through. We cannot give away that which we do not possess for ourselves, and that's self-love and self-care. And this ties into spirituality and some other quotes I often use. Heard this from Dave Grossman in the 90s. Pain shared is pain divided, joy shared is joy multiplied. Richard Rohr, who you've been reading, pain that is not transformed is transmitted. Pain that is not transformed is transmitted. And if you don't heal what hurts you, you will bleed on people that did not cut you, which often is your family. So all of this shit you see at work, if you don't have enough self-love to feel your feelings, as gay as that may sound to a cop, you will unconsciously stuff and self-medicate with the drinking and the chewing and the junk food and the gambling and the toys and the more overtime. And then your quote shadow, this unconscious stuff that you keep burying, you keep putting the skeletons in the closet, will blow up in your face at some point. That's why I have all these mental health statistics, shorter lifespans, divorce, alcoholism. So it really does come down to love. And I could even, we don't have the time for it theologically, but that's where a lot of religious people miss it. Like those that know God know love. If you don't know love, you don't know God. It is not what you know intellectually, it is not what you preach or tell people what your beliefs are, it's how you're living it out. And if you can have a chaplain with a life experience or a good friend, even if they're not on your support, or the right therapist, or the right mentor elder that has done their own work and authentically loves themselves and is comfortable with themselves, if you can self-regulate, then you can help other people co-regulate. And it it really is love. So I'm I'm glad Jared stepped in with all my analytical stuff.

SPEAKER_00 29:31

Yeah. No, thank you, Matt. For the listeners that are intrigued about the scientific approach, you know, to where where we intersect this uh this intuitive uh with the the tangible data matrix uh metrics, um, we have an episode with Matt that I'll pull up and I'll share later, or it'll be in the show notes. But um, yeah, I want to go to Jared because all you're both hitting on all these different factors, and I know that people listening in will take take from it based on their perspective. How do we stay present? How do we stay in this vein of love and care, Jared, uh, in all the hard times? And maybe that even goes to your own reflections on what's helped you stay positive and grounded and what you've seen has helped a lot of officers that you work alongside and and with for all these years.

SPEAKER_01 30:18

Part of the answer lies in who is doing the helping to start with. Another bone of contention that you hear a lot with both Matt and me when we talk about other helpers are helpers who are just not ready to be helpers yet. Unfortunately, when you talk about chaplains, clinicians, other helpers, there is a type of helper who the analogy I like, the story I like to use is that they were out swimming at the beach and started drowning because they were in water they were not prepared for, and they it's outside of their ability to keep themselves afloat. So the lifeguard swims out and rescues them, drags them to shore, resuscitates them. They sputter and spit the water out and say, I want to be a lifeguard. Well, that's fine, but you should learn to swim first. Okay. And so, so we have a lot of a lot of helpers who barely or maybe not at all know how to swim, but but they think they're gonna be a lifeguard. And what they're doing is they can traffic in their own trauma. They can take their horror stories, the terrible things they've been exposed to, and can trot that out, which is very interesting and will get you speaking gigs and get you attention from people, which is not always very healthy. And and they can put themselves in the position to be a helper. And and they're really not there yet. Uh they they can be down the road, perhaps, but right now with the current set of motivations and the current level of healthiness, they're not really in a good position to help others. Uh, they can barely keep themselves afloat. And so there's a lot of people that come into this space as chaplains or as public speakers or whatever. They write a book and and they're not really in a place to help. And and we need to have helpers who can help. Matt and I both, if you look at our ACES score, our adverse childhood experiences score, we're both like zeros. Okay. We both had very healthy upbringings, great support around us. We that that's part of why we get along so great. We we we are not the walking wounded. And it's not that we've not experienced trauma. We both have. We've we've been through tough stuff. Matt's medical story is amazing and and horrible and and everything all at the same time. I've been through some terrible things myself, but overall, we're in a pretty good position to actually help people. And and some people aren't yet. And I would pray that they would take time to do that first and and get themselves squared away and and make sure they've checked their motivations. And whether they're really doing this out of love or out of a desire to be important or to be the expert or to be the center of attention or something like that, that you need to make sure you have the right motivations. And so how do you find that? You know, how do I go to IACP and write a policy for how every chaplain should be trained? You're not you're not even going to get the right applicants at first. And of the applicants you get, there's only a tiny percentage that'll probably make an effective patrol chaplain. And can you teach the others to get there eventually? Maybe, maybe not. We're not, that's that's a hard thing to do. And so in my career, I'm I'm a pastor at a church. There's some wackos out there that are pastors. There's some people who should never be put in front of an audience, who should never be given a platform to speak, should never lead or counsel or help others. They're train wrecks, they're dumpster fires, that they shouldn't get to do it. And yet, even though the church has been around for 2,000 years, we still let those people slip through and it gives everybody a bad reputation. So chaplains are in the same boat. How do you make good chaplains? How do you crank the crank and turn out of the chaplain making machine on the assembly line chaplains who are all equally effective and efficient and trustworthy? I don't know that you can. And so you start with people who are trustworthy, you give them decades of exper of life experience, you fill them with love, and out of that you might get a good chaplain. But but it's not as simple as, you know, hit hand the recipe around to 18,000 different law enforcement agencies, and they all get the same result. So sorry to be overly bleak on that. I don't mean to be.

SPEAKER_00 35:06

No, I think I don't think you are, and I think you're setting up for, okay, what do we do with that? And you're you're right. It's not simple. None of these things are, none of these tough grappling challenges are simple. Um they take a lot. And what it makes me think about is how how you can translate what you just put out to any industry of value, right? Like it are there quacks that are doctors? I think that's where the word originated, like the term, right? Like, yes, like every type of doctor, MD, ND, PhD, uh, they can just say whatever they're saying and do whatever they're doing, and then like, where's the recourse? But at the same time, cops, teachers, counselors, uh politicians, judges, attorneys, right? Like, there's the good, the bad, and the ugly for everything and everyone. And like, how do we create more goodness? And it you kind of said it without saying, but it's the intention, you can do what you can do, right? It's the the circle of control that Matt talked about before we hopped on the recording, which is so, so uh simple and significant. It's comp complex when you put it into play and integrate that into your life however you can. Uh, all we can do is influence. And I think that both of you and what I try to do, and certainly I've I've picked this up from so many people that really, really care and they they put out a lot of good stuff. Um, and I'm not just saying like in content, I'm I'm talking about in the work they do, people I've known personally that are off-grid. They're not they're not on the socials, they're not on the podcast, but it's leadership with true intention and care and investment and modeling, right? It's not it's not a quick, quick uh scaling process, right? You model uh fantastic chaplaincy. Um, yeah, we're we're exposing it. We're trying to build more uh momentum and exposure for that through conversations like this. But in the old school and just where it's tried and true, is you have a chaplain that does it a great way and engaging and loving, and they get to touch a couple other chaplains, they get to they get to uh reach out and all these first responders, they get to meet all these community members, and some of them are going to be chaplains one day, and other others are going to be able to influence what a good chaplain looks like too. So I think that's super trans translatable to policing, to all these other things we're talking about.

SPEAKER_02 37:25

Leadership, and we talk about this in other emails. If you study leadership, it's not rank or title, it's influence. So for all these different things. Influence, how do we influence people the most? Actions speak louder than words. Role modeling, how you're living your life over the long term, not Bible thumping people, Crossfitting, jujitsu, paleo, keto, carnivore, vegan. It's how you're living your life and how you make other people feel when you're around them. And that only comes through applying the basics with consistency, discipline, and passion over the long haul of your life, where it's not about you getting the helpers high, being the influencer, or getting attention as the chaplain or the retired cop train wreck that now wrote the book and how they screwed up their life. And then they did five EMDR sessions, rehab, a psychedelic trip, SGB shot. I could go on down the list of things that I actually believe in as tools in a longer process of a lifestyle when you realize you've accepted the invitation to the second half of life, it's work for the rest of your life. There's the quote attributed to St. Francis, even though he really didn't say it. Preach the gospel at all times when absolutely necessary, use words. Go out and love on people with authenticity. And if you have genuine love for yourself, or you're comfortable enough to share that love with others by what I say holding space and being present, that's how you're going to influence them as a supervisor, an academy instructor, a coach, a chaplain, a mental health therapist. And our culture's set up to be different because people want fast food online. I'm in pain. I have something going on. What's the quickest fast food I can get? It's cheap, it's fast and delicious, but it's not as nutritious as the grass-fed pasture-raised steak that's going to cost twice as much. You're going to have to season it, leave it out at room temperature for a couple hours, then it's going to take 20 minutes to grill it. But it's going to have way more nutrition than the Big Mac. And so there's a lot of things going on in our culture that how do we teach people the awareness about pasture-raised, grass-fed, and finished meat and all of these other healthier things that take a longer time and it's really a commitment for the rest of your life. You get a big bench and abs, you cannot quit working out and eating strict. So there's no one rehab, medicine, EMDR couple sessions, save a warrior boulder crest, which I I tell cops, apply to them, and Protector's Peak and Mighty Oaks. Those are all free retreats, but they will just be an introduction to you opening your heart, hopefully, to do work for the rest of your life, not be the mentor, the elder, or the author next year.

SPEAKER_00 40:25

Yeah. I love that, Matt. And uh yeah, let's uh let's move our lives into this quality, pasture raised, right, grass-fed, grass-finished type of life and service and purpose. Right. So I love how that that really sums up a lot of the the quality that we're talking about. And the meaningful change, kind of like just uh you know, a few minutes back, we're talking about making meaning and these these meaningful, I suppose, approaches to these really hard challenges. It's never easy, right? It's never an overnight, there's no quick fix silver bullet. All right, Jared, where where are you at as far as like bringing it all together and summarizing some of the thoughts because we covered a lot of great ground?

SPEAKER_01 41:06

Yeah, summarizing what we said. Um, first of all, Matt does look like a Fed. That he's I'm not sure, I'm not sure he's not a plant, but but apparently he's not. I don't know he's not. I don't factually know he's not. And then um, and then what we were saying earlier about uh checking motivations. You know, I come from a very evangelical background, and all I know in my religious life is telling others about Jesus. And that that's all I know. But as a chaplain, I have to find a different way to do it. And I graded against that quote that's attributed to Francis of Assisi to, you know, always preach the gospel if necessary, use words. I said, no, you have to use words, you have to preach. You have to, you have to tell people directly. And what I found is that as a chaplain, where I was very limited about how much I could directly address, and I what didn't have under Limin versus Kurtzman, which is that's actually been replaced by Bremerton versus Kennedy, but regardless, under the court cases that were effective for decades and governed chaplaincy, I couldn't bring it up. I had to wait for them to bring up spiritual questions to me. And many times they didn't. Most 25-year-old cops aren't going to ask spiritual questions most of the time. And so, and so I had to be patient and wait. And that was hard, but I've learned that I'm still effective in doing what my heart wants to do, to, to, to let people know that there's hope, that, that they are valuable, that that even though the job breeds cynicism and can tear you down and can cost you terribly, that you are still worth it and you are still loved. That gets communicated without me having to preach at them. And so someday Matt and I are all going to get to heaven with all of our officers and all the different flavors of religion, and we'll find out that I was right the whole time. And we'll have a good laugh about it. We'll have a good laugh about it, but it wasn't necessary for me to argue it down here at the police station. Yeah. I love that.

SPEAKER_02 43:14

I'll just say one quick thing, and we could have a whole episode of this. Uncond the experience of unconditional love, going back to what Jared talked about, that's what changes people's lives. Unconditional love. So even very religious people sometimes I will ask, please share with me in your daily life where you experience the unconditional love of God, or tell me the most significant experiences in your life where you've experienced God through unconditional love. And I have hardcore Christians that'll be like, that's a hard question to answer. I got to get back to you. So beliefs are a good thing, but are you living out your beliefs and are your beliefs grounded in an experience of love? And love is really how we change anyone, not just as a chaplain. That's our brothers and sisters and patrol, SWAT gang, NARC, detective unit, command staff, supervisors to subordinates, love. And we may not use the word because in a police station they're gonna call you gay. But do your actions show love and authenticity and respect for others?

SPEAKER_00 44:26

Yeah, it's so well said, and I think that that just really drives home for a lot of the audience. Like, how do we bring that to our day-to-day work? Because that's why we signed up for this thing. Uh, that's why we should have signed up for this thing, is because you know, care, compassion, love for our fellow man, for humanity. And like this is this is the profession and the craft that you chose to to put out that love. And sometimes it's it doesn't look like love, but that's the basis of it, right? That's the that's the foundation. Um I love it. I mean, so much wisdom. I'll I'll have to unpack this a couple times, like listening to it back. Uh, but I mean off the cuff, a couple of things are like, how do we how do we start with love? Say less, do more, uh, see where your heart's at and where, you know, where you come in at, where your intentions are at. And you do the best you can through humility, modeling, and leadership. But I thank you both so much. I've gotten so much from this. I'm really excited to kind of go back through it and and share this out when we get it all ready. So um, Jared, and where can people find you? And please like give a quick uh second nod to your show.

SPEAKER_01 45:37

Hey Chaplin, H-E-Y, Heychaplain.com. Uh, it's a podcast that's been out for several years, and it's an officer wellness podcast. It's not a Bible study, it's an officer wellness podcast. If you're a cop or you love a cop, this is the show for you. Love it. All right, Matt.

SPEAKER_02 45:53

Tacticalchaplin.com and Tactical Chaplin and Thin Blue Line Spirituality on Instagram and Matt Domiensacon LinkedIn.