144 - The Chaplain Goes to an Autopsy: Kelsie Gwartney, Chief Death Investigator

This is episode 144 and we're going to talk about autopsies.  Don't worry I'm not going to take it too far; you can go ahead and keep eating your breakfast.  But I'm going to share with you the my recent visit to observe an autopsy and also my conversation with the local Chief Death Investigator.  First I made a recording of my thoughts as I drove to visit the coroner's office to observe an autopsy.  Then I recorded my reaction immediately after experiencing my first autopsy.  Finally, we'll sit down with Chief Death Investigator Kelsie Gwartney, who will share how she got into the business of doing autopsies and what a police officer should know, that I didn't know, before you go observe an autopsy for the first time.

Music is by National Sweetheart

Special Thanks to Shaun Hachinsky from Episode 033

Hey Chaplain Podcast Episode 144

Tags:

Chaplains, Autopsy, Bodies, Death, Detectives, Forensics, Investigations, Science, Kansas City, Topeka, Kansas, Arizona

Transcript

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SPEAKER_00 0:02

Welcome to Hey Chaplin. My name is Jared Altic and I'm a chaplain with the police department. The Hey Chaplin podcast talks to interesting people in law enforcement who say, Hey Chaplain, I've got a story to tell and some hard-earned wisdom to share. As patrol chaplain, I think you need to hear encouragement even when it comes to difficult topics. So my goal here is to bring you the most interesting people with the best possible wisdom to help you through every aspect of your career. This is episode 144, and we are going to talk about autopsies. Now, don't worry, I'm not gonna take it too far, and you can go ahead and keep eating your breakfast. But I'm going to share with you my recent visit to observe an autopsy and also my conversation with the local chief death investigator. First, I made a recording of my thoughts as I drove to the coroner's office to observe an autopsy. Then I recorded my reaction immediately after experiencing my first autopsy. Finally, we're gonna sit down with Chief Death Investigator Kelsey Gordon. She's going to share how she got into the business of doing autopsies and what a police officer should know that I didn't know before you go observe an autopsy for the first time. But first, here's me, Chaplain Altic, driving to the coroner's office full of nervous energy. I am driving over to the coroner's office, and I'm going to attend an autopsy. When I think of milestone events that a police officer has to go through, uh one of them is, you know, the first time you're on a dead body call. And I've done that. And one of them is having to go to an autopsy. And a lot of times officers will do that when they become detectives or if they work in CSI. There's that first autopsy you have to go to. And I've never done that. I thought, well, I I can remedy that if I'm able to get in and make arrangements. I don't want to interfere with any death investigation at all. And so I won't be recording any of the actual exam. I'm gonna go fill out whatever paperwork they want or need. I'm not particularly concerned about being around a dead body. I've done that a bunch. I've seen every kind of body and every state of decomposition and all kinds of grotesque dismemberments and that sort of thing. I've seen a lot of that already, hundreds of now. The question is whether the poking and prodding, the uh disassembly that happens in an autopsy, I'm not sure how I'm gonna react to that. Uh typically when I'm around a dead body, it is in repose, and the body is is lying still and not being disturbed. At worst, we're gonna have to roll it over, put it in a body bag. A lot of times I'm on scene when that's happening. So I've I've seen a body get pulled at and tugged and and you know, zipped up and hauled down a flight of stairs like so much luggage. I've I've seen that. But I've not seen a body be cut open and have parts removed and laid and that kind of thing. So so that's maybe going to bother me a little bit. I don't think it'll affect me a lot. One of the factors that I don't know is that I'm not sure who will be doing the exam, which examiner, uh, which person from the coroner's office is actually what to be doing the exam. And I don't know which detective or which CSI personnel will be there. And I would think I would feel better if I knew who it was gonna be, because then I would have some sense going in of okay, this is a person with a great sense of humor, or no, this is a very serious, stoic officer. I mean, this detective, he never jokes about anything. If if I knew which one it was, I think that would put me at ease as far as knowing what to expect with the people around me. Because I've also never been inside this facility. I've toured other like saying medical examiner's offices, but I've never toured this one in particular. So there's just several unknowns where where I'm I'm more comfortable if I'm going into a place I've been before and I'm gonna be around people I've been around before. That would make it easier for me to have a new experience that the place and the people were familiar. But in this case, the experience, the people, and the place are all unknowns, at least before I get out of the car and walk in the building. So, so we will see. I'm expecting one of the medical examiners, a detective, and maybe someone from CSI. That's what I'm anticipating. I also wondered how I should dress for this because I didn't know what day it would be on. Now, as it turned out, it's happening on a day on which I'm on call. And so I'm in the chaplain car wearing my chaplain garb, and so I'm wearing my normal uh, you know, polo and and tactical pants kind of uh chaplain outfit. So that solved that problem as far as like, you know, should I be dressed up or should I be super casual or what what kind of what would be appropriate? So in this case, I am dressed in business casual, department approved clothing, so I don't have to feel like I'm out of place in that regard. Hopefully, hopefully whoever is here is expecting me. And I'm not gonna catch somebody completely off guard, like, oh, why is a chaplain showing up? That would be disappointing if I walked in and a and they said, Oh, we don't we don't let chaplains in here. Or worse, I walk in, they think I'm there to do a death notification for an employee. That's not cool. I've had that happen before at a fire station and I rolled up and they all met me at the door cursing and eyes white as saucers. They were scared to death that a family member had died, and I was there to notify them.

SPEAKER_01 7:08

Alright, I am almost there.

SPEAKER_00 7:10

Just working my way through traffic. And I am actually starting to feel a little bit of anxiety. Again, I've never been in this building. I don't know if I know any of the people that are gonna be there. And it's a brand new experience. In a perfect world, I'm gonna pull up at the same time as a detective or a CSI tech that I know. That would be a huge relief.

SPEAKER_01 7:44

All righty, I think that might have been the entrance. Forensic medical naturally, there's not a parking space.

SPEAKER_00 8:30

Alright, here I go. Wish me luck. There are two words that resonate with me now that I've gone through this experience. The first I used just there a moment ago, where I said disassembly. The other word will come up later with Chief Death Investigator Gourtney, and she'll say eviscerate. Both of those, disassembly and evisceration, perfectly describe what I just experienced. Here's my thoughts immediately after walking out of the building and running through the rain to get back into my car. Alright, I am back in the car, and uh that wasn't so bad. I mean, it was eye-opening, but it but it wasn't I didn't get sick, I didn't react badly, I didn't really feel that squeamish. In fact, uh I commented to one of the CSI guys that that it was more difficult to watch the initial incisions because the subject was still whole, still a whole person, versus later when parts are being removed and you know it's a little more not violent, but a little rougher, you know, and and and that seems like okay, now the body's d down to just parts, and it's not as difficult to take as when when you got a person who's laying there and they're like, well, they could just be sleeping, and then you start cutting into them. That was that actually, I think affected me more, that initial incision affected me more. But uh, I had a detective and a CSI guy and um an intern and then three or four different doctors and technicians there in the facility. And so there's a whole group of us, and I like talking to cops. And so chatting with the detective and the CSI officer, that was I mean, that was an enjoyable hour and a half of of chatting with those police officers. Now ten feet away, a body is being opened and and everything's being weighed and measured and and what have you. And I faced it and watched it happen. It was interesting. Uh the particulars of this case, which I won't go into, uh you know, had there were injuries specific to that case that would make this autopsy different than other autopsies. But it was it was interesting, like on an intellectual level. It was uh a little unnerving, uh, just because wow, that's the inside of a human body, and and you know, there's a human tragedy associated with this. And in order to do this part of the investigation, they're going to get right in there and take body parts out and and investigate them, which is kind of difficult to watch. And and so that processing is a very impersonal experience. And so you have this human tragedy that's going on, and then you have this very impersonal, very rough, um, again, and not violent is not quite the right word because it's very technical. Uh, it's not uh to me, violence implies that it's reckless, and this is not reckless, but but it is a very rough experience to to cut out all of those body parts and weigh and measure them and do all the things they do. That that is difficult when on the other hand you have balanced this human tragedy of what happened uh to the individual. And and uh my experience is always about paying respect to the dead. I want to make sure when the body is removed from the crime scene that there is the greatest reverence and respect. And then, of course, all the way at the end of this process when there's a funeral, uh, it's very much about respect for the dead. Uh, but preparing a body to be examined and then doing the examination and really preparing for an embalming and whatever, that's that's probably not something that you would want the loved ones to witness. Um it's like I said, it's it's unpleasant, and this is a terrible turn of phrase, but it's unpleasant to see how the sausage is made. And so, and so there's some things that with delicate sensibilities, maybe for a victim or for a family member of a victim, um, you know, there's some processes, including this autopsy, that you probably wouldn't want the family to to be privy to. They'd be better off just not knowing how this works. Also, it's interesting to watch it and whether I would want like if I had the option to have a loved one autopsied, would I want that to happen to their body? Um, like I said, it's not meant to be disrespectful, but it is pretty rough. And everything's gonna be cut out and and taken out and you know, eventually put back and whatever, but but it's if you think of your loved one and them being whole, would you want this process to even happen to them? Would that feel traumatic to you um if you understood what it was? You know, if you said, Yes, I definitely want my loved one autopsy, and then maybe years later you find out what an autopsy is actually like, uh, would you feel okay with that? I mean, I guess some people would probably be fine. I wonder if everyone would be fine long term. I I'm just I'm just not sure that that would be okay with some people. But that's interesting to me. But I think I'm okay. Uh like I said, it didn't particularly bother me. In fact, the things that bothered me most were thinking of how other people might be bothered by this. I don't think that I would have wanted to witness an autopsy of an infant. Um, I know those can be pretty difficult uh to go through that. Um uh that's just hard again, because because again, just like a family member would sympathize, we all sympathize with children. And so I am very glad that this was not a child, uh especially a very young child. And I do worry about my officers, you know, seeing some of this if they were to have a victim that they personally identify with, a child the same age as their own child, or just somebody that that for whatever reason it resonates with them that like, okay, I feel a connection to this person. I don't think I would want an officer to witness that autopsy. I do appreciate that a detective can go into the courtroom and say, Look, I care about this victim, and I was willing to be present at their autopsy, and that's why I was there. And and it's not just to corroborate what the medical examiner says, but but I I went the extra mile and I was physically at this autopsy with with the victim. So anyway. An interesting experience. I don't think I will volunteer to do this on the regular. Okay, now we've heard from the amateur. Let's listen to the expert. Our guest today is Kelsey Gourtney. She is the chief of death investigations and administrator for the facility that I visited here in Kansas City. Here's Kelsey Gourney. Hello, Kelsey. How are you today?

SPEAKER_02 16:52

Good. How are you doing?

SPEAKER_00 16:53

I'm doing well. I'm glad you're here today. I appreciate you coming in. I appreciate you accommodating me to uh you know help arrange my observation of an autopsy. Absolutely. Appreciate everybody there. It was very professional and it was a good experience overall.

SPEAKER_02 17:08

Okay, so I like to hear.

SPEAKER_00 17:10

Nobody's in trouble at the boss.

SPEAKER_02 17:12

Okay, good, good, good.

SPEAKER_00 17:13

All right. You are the chief death investigator here in Kansas City, Kansas, and also users' offices in Topeka and other locations. I mean, what are what are you in charge of exactly?

SPEAKER_02 17:26

Yeah. So technically I'm part of a private company, uh Forensic Medical. So they actually have offices. Um, they're the Nashville office and they oversee two in Texas, and then were there branches in Kansas of Kansas City, Kansas, and Topeka. Okay. So I kind of oversee at this point operations for both of those offices.

SPEAKER_00 17:43

How many counties send their autopsies to you guys?

SPEAKER_02 17:46

Yeah, I would say total, we're probably into like the 50s or 60s by the time you count Kansas and Missouri.

SPEAKER_00 17:51

So like okay. So like over a third of Kansas.

SPEAKER_02 17:54

Yeah, I would say so. Um we have contracts also for hospital cases for privates if families want them. Okay. And then a lot of the outside county service with us, and then a handful were direct coroner for.

SPEAKER_00 18:05

How did you get into doing autopsies?

SPEAKER_02 18:08

So that I've been a military brat all my life, and my dad was a criminal investigator for a period of time. Okay. So I would say I kind of got into it a little early of just curiosity of that. And then um going into school, I just was always interested in anatomy, kind of the science of things. So I went to Kansas State University for biology initially, and then kind of progressed into double majoring in criminology. And as part of that, I did an internship um around, I want to say my junior year.

SPEAKER_00 18:34

At one at any point, did you want to be a cop?

SPEAKER_02 18:37

I thought about it for about two seconds, decided very quickly was not for me. Um, and then for a long time I thought I wanted to do kind of lab work, you know, like CSI, um, ballistics, that sort of thing is what I was thinking initially. And then during my time at K-State for that internship, I went to Maricopa County in Arizona and got to work in their investigations as well as some autopsy experience and absolutely fell in love.

SPEAKER_00 19:04

So you're out in the field and also back at the autopsy suite.

SPEAKER_02 19:08

Yeah, I would say I got very lucky with that internship. I had no idea just how big of a county it was until I was dealing with it. And I think they're like the fourth biggest county in the US. I mean, they just have case after case. And so I would go there. Um, it was during a summer. So I was basically there every week, multiple days a week. And I would say I got five to ten scenes, you know, when I'm there just because they were constantly going. Sure. So quick experience, which was awesome.

SPEAKER_00 19:33

But they didn't turn you off to it.

SPEAKER_02 19:35

No, quite the opposite. I very quickly realized that's what I wanted to do.

SPEAKER_00 19:39

Really?

SPEAKER_02 19:40

Yeah. Which, like I said, I always thought lab work. And then I did that internship and I thought, this is my wheelhouse. This is what I want to do. So when I came back, um graduated and then immediately jumped into assisting with autopsies. So forensic technician, autopsy assistant, that kind of thing. Did that for a few years and then um really wanted to get into investigations. So I kind of transitioned for a while. I was hybrid, doing some of both, and then went into investigations and then been there for about five, 10 years now, just kind of working up. And now I kind of oversee all of our all of our death investigators, MDIs, and then kind of our day-to-day operations.

SPEAKER_00 20:16

Yeah, you've put on a lot of hours, and and you were telling me earlier before we started recording that you've you've overseen thousands of autopsies. I mean, there's some percentage of those, you were actually the one doing the cutting.

SPEAKER_02 20:30

Right.

SPEAKER_00 20:30

But you've been involved in thousands.

SPEAKER_02 20:32

I would yeah, my hands in, I would say for sure, between the two offices and just between kind of assisting with them scenes, follow-up, definitely.

SPEAKER_00 20:40

Yeah. Yeah. Why did you know you wanted to do this? There's a lot about an autopsy that is off-putting. Right. It's foreign to what 99% of people ever experience. Why did you want to do more of it?

SPEAKER_02 20:56

I wouldn't say necessarily the autopsy itself, physically, I was drawn to. It's more so that field and that specific portion of forensics field that's so big just ties a lot of things in for me. Um, you know, I like I said, I love anatomy. I like understanding the body, kind of the science behind it. So that portion, um, my curiosity portion, just investigations, being out in the field. I love talking to families. I love kind of getting that history, kind of tying things together to make things make sense is just the way my brain works.

SPEAKER_03 21:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:28

I feel like I've had weird ties throughout my years there that have kind of confirmed my decision. Um, you know, as I've gotten more passionate about certain things in the field, you know, skeletal cases, cold cases, forensic genetic genealogy, those things that I'm really drawn to now, I don't think I ever would have really known had I not gone into it. Sure. Um, I'm also a tissue recipient. So meaning um donation, body donation, organ tissue donation, I'm a recipient of that. And now I get to help other people coordinate that for somebody else. Wow. So it's just little pieces. Throughout time have kind of just confirmed, you know, what I initially was drawn to during that internship for sure. And I now that I've been out in the field, I don't see myself ever being in a lab, you know, the ballistics, the lab work, obviously so important, you know. But and the people that can do that, amazing. I just now I could never see myself doing that. So I'm just so glad I did that internship and got exposed to it very early on.

SPEAKER_00 22:24

Sure, sure. So what does it take to move beyond the idea of cutting up a person and into the I'm solving a problem, I'm bringing justice to a family, I am solving a mystery. Where does it, where is the tipping point from like, okay, this is a person that I'm going to get real involved in here? Right. How do you move from that to the more clinical we're going to solve what happened to this person?

SPEAKER_02 23:02

I mean, I think the best way I can describe it is just knowing your ability to disassociate from, you know, the physical aspect of it. You know, once you get past the, this doesn't smell very good, you know, I don't like what I'm looking at. Once you get past that, um, and I've just a lot of people are like germophobes, that sort of thing that you tie an autopsy to of like, I'm disgusted. Once you get past that and you look at it of like a medical, let me try to find some answers, let me look for pieces of clues to things to really get the family an answer of what I'm our ultimate goal is what is cause and manner of death.

SPEAKER_03 23:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:36

Uh that's what I'm looking for. And then everything else is just you're tying it in. Okay, let me talk to the family, let me get their medical records, let me see what law enforcement did. You know, that's really our job of tying everything together to make that determination. And then whatever that determination is kind of leads to how everything else goes.

SPEAKER_00 23:53

Is that is that what satisfies you is getting that determination, getting that answer, or is there some other aspect of it?

SPEAKER_02 24:00

I would say a portion of it, yes. You know, I like I said, I like to kind of tie things together and get an answer. You know, I like to solve problems, I would say. And that for me is that portion, but then also the back end of it of okay, now we've answered that question. So now what does that look like for family and law enforcement? You know, what road can they go down now that we've answered the question?

SPEAKER_00 24:19

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Are there things you can't eat anymore?

SPEAKER_02 24:25

Not anymore. I can really only think of like one time that that really became a thing for me. And it was, and I don't know how detail you want me to get. Um, it was a cooler where someone had been dismembered and mixed with certain foods in this cooler. Uh it was a transient situation, so they were kind of living out of that cooler. Yeah. So, you know, you've got personal things in there.

SPEAKER_00 24:49

There's food and there's body parts together.

SPEAKER_02 24:51

Yeah, and there's toiletries. It was, you know, you get everything in there. And that's when I was an autopsy tech. So physically I'm the one handling and removing things from that cooler. And so physical body parts mix with certain food. And at the time, that's too far. Right. Right. Yeah, it's a little too far. So I'm trying to think of better ways to say it.

SPEAKER_00 25:10

The stereotype in television and movies is that that pathologists and the technicians that work with them are just unflappable. They'll literally eat a sandwich over the cadaver.

SPEAKER_02 25:21

I would say that's true. People that have been in the field long enough, you know, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 25:25

Okay. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 25:26

It's it just doesn't become, I think I said it earlier to you.

SPEAKER_00 25:29

They're nose blind. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:30

You know, it's it's like you walking in and getting a cup of coffee and like typing some emails to them as walking into an autopsy suite and cutting open a body.

SPEAKER_00 25:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:38

I mean, really, it's to put it, yeah, you know, that's just it is what it is.

SPEAKER_00 25:42

It's not just for yourself, but speaking also for the people that work for you. Does the job affect their relationships? Are there people whose, you know, their girlfriend or boyfriend just ducks out and says, I can't. I can't date a person who cuts open bodies.

SPEAKER_02 25:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:58

Does that happen? Or it does. I think every mother whose child wants to go into this field thinks, well, you'll never get married.

SPEAKER_02 26:05

Right.

SPEAKER_00 26:06

You know?

SPEAKER_02 26:06

I see one of two ways. And it's funny because I feel like I'm kind of the outlier on this. Um, I see some who are married to what I would consider people in the field, you know, nurses, okay. EMS. You know, they their spouse can understand. Yeah, they can understand they're in that wheelhouse. Then, like myself, complete opposite, where, you know, my husband is very good at math, IT, that sort of that's his wheelhouse, you know. And if I start, if it's blood related, body related, not what he's into. So we can have a conversation, but there's a line of, you know, hey, not for me.

SPEAKER_00 26:40

Has he have you ever brought him to work? I have not. Okay. So he doesn't want to see it.

SPEAKER_02 26:46

No. And I I feel like I respect that. Okay. And I um I honestly think that kind of helps me. Um, of I have that boundary where hey, I'm dealing with this all day. Um, sometimes on call at night, sometimes on a weekend I'm getting questions. And then I can separate those things and be talking to people that have no idea. And it, you know, removes my mind from dealing with that 24-7.

SPEAKER_03 27:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:09

So it's it's good. You know, he's very supportive. He, you know, lets me talk when I need to talk, but he also gives me that boundary. So for me, I enjoy that. For some people, I know they want to talk things to death, or you know, like they want to get to nitty-gritty. It's like, you know, he'll listen to, you know, something like that.

SPEAKER_00 27:26

Well, they want to share. You know, exactly. I want you to know, I want to talk about my day. I want to want you to have experience what I go through and what I do.

SPEAKER_02 27:34

Which to a degree, absolutely. I mean, he's we've been together for a very long time. I mean, and so I think he understands and he knows when I'm when I'm in the talking mode and when I'm not, and he knows how to kind of adjust the conversation, which is helpful to me. But I know some people have to feel like they have to have somebody in the field to fully understand them.

SPEAKER_00 27:52

Well, let's talk about my police officers. Uh, what should a cop know before they go to their first autopsy?

SPEAKER_02 27:59

A couple things stand out for me. Um, one, I would say just process, just to understand, you know, hey, what am I getting myself into? I think having a general idea of the steps of an autopsy makes sense.

SPEAKER_00 28:11

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 28:11

Um, I would say the second one for me would be um because I did not get that.

SPEAKER_00 28:17

I walked in, I literally don't know what's gonna happen. And and they're like, oh, and now we're doing this. And I was like, okay, I'm just along for the ride.

SPEAKER_02 28:25

Yeah, I'm just thinking somebody who's absolutely never been to one, if they're going into it, having a general idea of the process, I think would be helpful. Um, I think coming prepared is a big one where people just they get so anxious and worked up, like, hey, I'm going to an autopsy, they kind of forget the part of why are you coming?

SPEAKER_03 28:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:40

You're coming because we need to answer some questions, you know, there's a concern about this case, whatever the background is. Bring your report. Do you have scene photos? Putting context to things that I mean, the doctor's not seeing any of that up front half the time.

SPEAKER_03 28:53

Right.

SPEAKER_02 28:53

So if you're bringing that with you to actually ask him questions while you're there in front of him and put things together with what you're seeing at the exam, that's only gonna benefit your investigation more. So I would say coming prepared is one that I think kind of people forget about because they assume they can get the records later and just, you know, we'll answer those questions later. And then the third one I would say is understand that there's reasonable limitations to what a doctor's gonna what a forensic pathologist is gonna be able to tell you.

SPEAKER_03 29:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:18

You know, if you're going into it, you're kind of like the public. You have a mindset of they're gonna tell me exactly when they died.

SPEAKER_00 29:23

Right, right.

SPEAKER_02 29:24

You know, exactly what every mystery. Exactly, what weapon was used, and that's just not the case. Like the the autopsy and the scene investigation are just like step one in a death investigation. You know, that's just the medical portion of it, and now we've got to build everything else over the next two months of medical records, toxicology, following up with family, you know, what are you finding in your investigation? You're not gonna have all the answers on day one. And I think people assume that the doctors can give more in that moment than they really can.

SPEAKER_00 29:53

You know, they can definitely answer things, but how do you think an autopsy affects the average officer? I mean, they come in, whether they're a CSI tech, which and and those guys, bless their hearts, they are getting up close, taking pictures on scene and at the autopsy. I mean, they're getting, you know, within inches of everything.

SPEAKER_03 30:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:12

Um, but our detectives too. Our detectives, you know, feel an obligation to be there, especially if they were to ever be asked in court, right? Did you bother to go to the autopsy? I mean, we have several detectives who are like, absolutely, I was at the autopsy. Yeah. But but it's gonna have an impact on them to go. Um, what do you think that impact is? How would you describe it?

SPEAKER_02 30:35

Kind of I mentioned earlier, like disassociating. I feel like it's kind of that original thing of like out-of-body experience at first, maybe. Um, and then again, depending on their how comfortable they are with an actual body. Yeah, you know, the senses, the blood, smell, all those things, depending, I feel like that kind of sticks with you initially. And then it's the disassociating and kind of being out of body. And then afterwards, I call it like reflecting, then you start kind of wishing you had asked more questions, or then it causes you to have more questions. Yeah. Um, so then you're kind of in this limbo of I need to answer things and get more information. So that part I think is helpful to an investigation, but I feel like it almost makes you feel like you need to be doing more, I guess if that makes sense. You know, like, okay, now I now that I've seen extent of injuries, or now that I've got these questions, now I have to go talk to the family. It just gives you more obligations and more questions that can kind of be, I would say, a strain if you're attending autopsies all the time. Cause you know, it's just constant you're viewing that, and then you're going and getting questions and talking to family and grieving with them. It's I would think it would it builds up quickly, I guess.

SPEAKER_00 31:39

I don't know, I don't know what I expected as far as the smell. And and the there were two cadavers in the room when I was there. And the smell is prominent, but I think the first thing that struck me was it smells worse on scene.

SPEAKER_02 31:56

That was a question I had for you. Is it, you know, when you're first coming in, again, I'm like rethinking back to my initial viewing. I feel like the smell is the first thing because you're opening the door and that's the first thing that hits you from a census standpoint. So depending on what cases we have going on that day, you know, is that something right off the bat that's turning, you know, turning you off to it and now you're thinking of that and not focusing on their own.

SPEAKER_00 32:17

And so it the room itself smells clean. And and that is not the case on scene on scene, somebody's out there in all of the filth.

SPEAKER_03 32:26

Right.

SPEAKER_00 32:27

And and I I I have a pretty strong constitution. I've never vomited on a scene, but I've been at hundreds of death scenes. And and and in each of those death investigations, I I've I've smelled far worse than than what was going on in at the autopsy.

SPEAKER_02 32:45

Yeah, no, that's that's interesting. And I would I think it would be how often somebody's going to those scenes.

SPEAKER_03 32:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:50

You know, for them to really tie that together of, you know, which one's worse kind of question. But yeah, I mean, we've had our experience with hoarder houses and feces and the way some people live sometimes is amazing.

SPEAKER_00 33:04

Everything else, yeah. It it and and of course decomposition. But but mercy's sakes. It I was expecting worse. Okay. So, and so it was prominent, even strong in a way, but it was a strong smell in an otherwise sterile environment. I felt that wasn't as bad as I was expecting.

SPEAKER_02 33:23

Okay, that's good. That's good. Yeah, and it's I mean, there's airflow. I mean, there's things we do to combat it, obviously, too, right? So, you know, airflow, that sort of thing. It's not like we were having you intentionally try to smell those things. So it's it's kind of a weird thing.

SPEAKER_00 33:35

But there were moments, there were moments that were worse.

SPEAKER_02 33:37

And again, depending on the cases you're doing, um, you know, like we'll process around six to eight autopsies a day. So if you know, if it's a law enforcement case, you could have had an exam before you that was decomposed and now you're coming into a fresh body and it kind of takes you off guard. Yeah. So it kind of just day-to-day depends as well.

SPEAKER_00 33:52

Yeah. So officer coming in and doing, you know, the first autopsy they observe or the first several, that kind of thing, there's gonna be an impact. Just you're seeing a human body like you've never seen it before.

SPEAKER_03 34:06

Right.

SPEAKER_00 34:07

And this is a very clinical procedure that's being done. Um, but boy, you're you're gonna see that body in a light like you've never seen it before. Right. And I that's what I was not ready for. Yeah. Uh I was like, wow, this is this is something. And the further we got into it for me, the better it was, because even though it was more, I don't know if gory is a fair way to describe it, but it was more involved, but it was also less. I was able to, I was dissociating the fact that it was a person.

SPEAKER_02 34:43

Right.

SPEAKER_00 34:44

And now we're talking about body parts and what happened to this part of the body that caused the death. And and it was more about the question and the parts than it was about the whole person. And the further I was from the whole person, the better I felt. Right. Right. Exactly. And so, so actually the the initial the initial cut bothered me more than some of the more involved, you know, removing organs and stuff like that. That that was less that bothered for me, that bothered me less. What do you think the average cop is going to or are they gonna how do you think they're gonna process that?

SPEAKER_02 35:20

I think somewhat similar. Um, I think it would just depend on that specific person if I because I think we mentioned it earlier. To me, it it's gonna go one of two ways. If you're focusing on the first things that you're noticing, so like the smell, um sounds that you may be hearing, um, you know, you're if you're not good with blood, syringes, those sorts of things that might trigger somebody's response.

SPEAKER_03 35:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 35:40

You know, if they're focusing on that, they're gonna go one way. And, you know, we've we've had people faint, we've had people throw up. That's not unusual. I tell people, you know, we're the weird ones in a nice way. You know, it is not normal to just day-to-day be eviscerating bodies and seeing death over and over and over, you know, eight times a day if you're doing exams. Yeah. So we are the weird ones, you're not. That's a normal response by your body for good reason. You know, so it's it's not anything that we ever judge if that does happen. We have interns, law enforcement. I mean, I think people think law enforcement need to be strong, steady. You know, I'm gonna stand and watch this, and then I've had some completely collapse. It just totally depends on that person's body and what they're noticing.

SPEAKER_00 36:20

Yeah, your your crew were really good to us. They who because we there was a CSI officer, a detective, myself, and an intern. And they're like, look, if you want to have a seat, have a seat, stand right here, you'll be fine, you know. And our attention was divided because we were having conversation. We were talking about the case, we were talking about vacation, we were talking about all kinds of different things, and we didn't have to. I mean, the CSI officer he had his camera out, so he was he was involved very directly, but but we were able to kind of distract ourselves also as we were going through that, especially for me for my first time.

SPEAKER_02 36:57

Yeah, coming solo versus with somebody, I mean, that's a great if you know a trigger for you is gonna be okay. I'm I'm gonna get nervous and being able to talk it out with somebody while you're watching, obviously a big help if that's a trigger to you. So if they go the route with the senses, then you know that's when we kind of see where they focus on that too much and they can't really come back from it. The other avenue is, like you said, once you get past those things and you see the initial cut or incision, then it turns into now I'm thinking medical. You know, now I'm more curious, I would say. And I want to see what the organs look like. And I want to see, you know, what's the injury look like there? And you're wanting to ask the doctor questions. I think if people can really hone in on that and focus on that part of why you're there, we're trying to determine cause and manner. So let's look for what that is. Yeah. The more you lean into that and kind of get past that initial shock and senses, I think that's really the people that can come more frequently, they really hone into that and take off from there.

SPEAKER_00 37:51

The ones who adjust really well to it, what do you think they're doing right?

SPEAKER_02 37:55

Hmm. Asking questions.

SPEAKER_00 37:58

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 37:59

You know, if there's something you're not sure about, or like I said, identifying your triggers. If, you know, you notice when they go to cut somebody's rib cage and they're using, I call them loppers, but you know, like big, giant pruning. Pruning loppers is what they use. And a lot of people are like, oh my gosh, you know, even equipment. They have no idea that's stuff that we use because it seems so simple.

SPEAKER_03 38:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 38:19

Ask questions. Okay, why do you guys use that? Okay, that's what you're gonna use. Now you're gonna hear the sound.

SPEAKER_00 38:24

Asking those questions and getting past sound like I thought it would.

SPEAKER_02 38:27

Yes, exactly. At all.

SPEAKER_00 38:28

In my mind, I'm like, oh, here it comes. And I'm like, oh, well, that didn't sound like I thought it would. Right. And so it was, yeah, that was fascinating.

SPEAKER_02 38:36

Yeah, and same with, you know, the circular saw for the skull.

SPEAKER_00 38:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 38:40

That's another big one.

SPEAKER_00 38:40

You know, you're using a saw, you're making a lot of noise, but I've heard officers say that was their tipping point.

SPEAKER_02 38:45

And having them understand, you know, how we do that. These are the cuts we're gonna make. Um, I always try to preface it, you know, when you go to remove the skull cap after they make those cuts, there is a certain sound that that makes when you're kind of separating it from the dura and from the brain, letting people know that's coming.

SPEAKER_03 39:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 39:02

Which I think is just you build a bond with the technician, you know what they're gonna do, you know their next steps, you know it's coming, and so it becomes less and less abrasive too.

SPEAKER_00 39:09

I feel like the CSI officer and the detective were not giving me any heads up. I think they were kind of testing me. I think they're like, look at this. I'm like, Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 39:19

Oh. You're like, wow, that's what it looks like, you know, all together.

SPEAKER_00 39:22

Yes, yeah, yep, yep. I wasn't expecting that. Yeah, and and they did nothing to warn me at all. And so, yeah, but uh it was fine, but and I don't think I gave them the action they wanted. They were like, Oh, here go, here comes look at this chap. You know, and so yeah.

SPEAKER_02 39:40

Yeah, it is it is funny. I will say, I don't know if you want to put this in there, but it is funny to me, obviously being a female, and then you know, my job, I'm eviscerating a body and I'm watching a grown man over there, over there gagging and you know, barely maintaining composure. Well, that's why I said, you know, people I think think they have to do that, or you know, they're in a medical setting and they feel like they have to, and then they have those natural reactions, but it is a little comical sometimes, you know, if you're you know that's funny.

SPEAKER_00 40:10

That is funny. Are there ever times where you're you're in the autopsy suite? This is the third autopsy you've done today, and and the detective walks in and he's been talking with the family and they're grieving. Have there ever been disconnects where maybe you're being a little too clinical and insensitive even to the detective?

SPEAKER_02 40:31

I would say so. I would say it's more, it's not so much, you know, our employees are actively trying to be that way. No, no, it's it's more so a detective is you know emotionally charged from the situation. They're taking it one way, or like you just said, they just got done talking to family, and then somebody over here is talking about you know what they're gonna have for lunch today in the middle of an autopsy.

SPEAKER_00 40:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 40:51

There is a disconnect there, not be clinical, right?

SPEAKER_00 40:56

Not intentionally, but it is there, and it's I and you have to be dissociated, you have to be detached to keep doing this and to do it well and to to bring light to a situation that needs it. You you have to be detached, right? But I can imagine I I know some emotional detectives, yeah, and I can imagine them being offended.

SPEAKER_02 41:20

And rightfully so. I mean, again, they're the ones dealing with the family, and I think it's one of those things you just have to kind of remind remind them hey, we're not, you know, we're doing this for this family.

SPEAKER_03 41:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 41:31

And we have to do it a certain way, and we have to follow certain processes. And there's a reason why we're doing this, is so that we can get you that answer to then turn around and give it to family. So we're really benefiting family, but we do have to kind of do boundaries and do disconnection to to get past those cases, or else how are we gonna do all these cases?

SPEAKER_00 41:48

Yeah. What what would you want a police officer to know about what you do?

SPEAKER_02 41:54

I would say that it's a lot more well-rounded and we can offer a lot more if you're communicating and coordinating well. Let's say somebody calls in a scene to us, we're not the ones directly on scene, let's say it's an out-of-county one. Um, the body gets transported to us, we do an exam, let's say nobody attended. All we have at that point are what you verbally told us and what we saw medically. And then we're gonna draw conclusions based on, you know, the rest of our investigation, our medical legal investigation, we'll follow up with family. But if there's things that from an investigative standpoint, you know and you have, the more you share that with us, the more you communicate, the more you ask questions, the more you coordinate, can I come to the exam for XYZ reason? You know, the family's asking this question, I saw this on scene, the more we're gonna tie things together, the more information we're gonna give you, the better that investigation's gonna be.

SPEAKER_00 42:44

Okay. So don't leave the pathologist out of the loop. Yeah. And then expect them to provide miracle answers when you've given them almost nothing to work with except for the body. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 42:55

And then I would say being very honest with family up front about expectations. I think that's a big one that we deal with with the public, where, you know, it's the day and age where they think everything is done in two seconds. And like I said, the scene investigation, the autopsy, that's the very first step. Yeah. We're talking usually reports are eight to 12 weeks, just kind of general. And people are always like, why does it take that long? You know, you did the exam on Thursday, why don't you have the results on Monday? Toxicology, medical records, histology. Do we need to look at things under the microscope? Now we need to go back and talk to that detective. Do we have their report? Do we have, you know, all the family information? I mentioned don't.

SPEAKER_00 43:34

Are there tests that are sent off site?

SPEAKER_02 43:36

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 43:36

Yeah. Yeah. And so you've got to wait for those to travel to another lab or whatever and then come back. And yeah.

SPEAKER_02 43:42

Yeah. And then you've got the more expanded ones of, you know, are we talking a skeletal case where we have a lot less to deal with body condition wise? And now we're doing consults. Anthropology, are we getting identifications confirmed? DNA can take months. Um, I mentioned donation.

SPEAKER_00 43:57

DNA is not done in the span of a commercial break. No, right.

SPEAKER_02 44:00

But bone, but the show Bones told me they got it two in two days. No, it takes months. Um, and depending on how you go about the funding for that, you know, KBI is a great resource, but is it something where we're trying to identify a cold case or something where we're having to use NAMUS and these DNA labs that are helpful, but obviously they take time to do that work. Um, I mentioned donation earlier. If you know you're coming to an autopsy and that person was an organ donor before they got to us. Let's say you have a question that family asked you, you know, did they have some heart disease or is it something genetic with the heart? What if the heart was donated? The doctor can't even look at it. So now we have to wait for donation records. Now we've got to, I mean, there's just pieces of a puzzle that they have to put together that I think the autopsy is one piece. And I think people think that's the end-all be all where you're gonna get your answers, and it's really way more expansive. So I think detectives and law enforcement understanding that and being able to relay that to family for expectations is huge as well.

SPEAKER_00 44:56

Yeah. What do you like about working with law enforcement?

SPEAKER_02 45:01

Not much. No, just no, I like I said, I like being in the field and piecing things together. So I like understanding what they're thinking. You know, what what they're thinking from a criminal aspect or how it ties into them from like a judicial standpoint. Um because I'm thinking medically, right? You know, and like hearing the differences and their opinions on things and what their investigation shows. And I think that's really interesting. Um, because we don't always get to see the end result, you know, of court. Like our doctors will go, but like our investigators and our techs rarely are going to court. And so seeing all of it from start to finish isn't, I think, interesting. And that's the person really from start to finish, detective-wise, that's seeing that case through.

SPEAKER_00 45:42

So, Kelsey Gourtney, thank you so much for being in today. I appreciate it.

SPEAKER_02 45:46

Yeah, thank you.

SPEAKER_00 45:48

I want to thank Kelsey for letting me come in and observe an autopsy. I want to thank my detective who was there and my CSI officer who was there. They both made it a lot easier for the patrol chaplain to endure his first autopsy. I hope that you didn't find the topic of episode 144 to be too gross. But I do think it's important for two reasons. First, I think that it's important for chaplains to experience what their officers go through. I feel like that is the secret sauce, the superpower that chaplains have is that we can be alongside our officers. And secondly, to get the opportunity to hear somebody who's done hundreds of autopsies give an insider's point of view on how to get through it. That is very much the kind of information that I'm always looking for. And I hope it helped you. Hey Chaplin is a free resource for everyone because of those supporters who are quietly helping behind the scenes. If you want to help the show reach more cops, chaplains, and other first responders around the world, please follow the link in the episode description to support the show. The views expressed here are the personal views of the hosts and our guests and do not necessarily represent the views of any law enforcement agency or its components. If you like this episode, please share it with a cop or someone who loves a cop. Thank you for listening to Hey Chaplin. And as always, let's pray for peace in our cities.