146 - They Don't Want Any Weirdo Chaplains: Kevin Shive, Serving the Shield

I want police officers to understand why chaplains exist and I want chaplains to understand how they can serve better.  One of the best ways to "get it" is to listen to this conversation with a chaplain who has the right attitude and character.  Our guest today is Kevin Shive. Kevin is a police chaplain from Golden, Colorado and he is also the founder and executive director of Serving the Shield, formerly Rocky Mountain Police and Fire Chaplains.  Kevin is going to share some chaplain stories from the front lines but we are also going to talk about vetting and dismissing people who may not be fit to be chaplains.

"This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil." John 3:19

Music is by Jessie Villa

Hey Chaplain podcast Episode 146

Tags:

Chaplains, Accidents, Chaplaincy, Character, Church, Death, Ministry, Organization, Pastoral Care, Police, Purpose, Skepticism, Theology, Tragedy, Aurora, Boulder, Golden, Colorado

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:03

Welcome to Hey Chaplin. My name is Jared Altic and I'm a chaplain with the police department. The Hey Chaplin podcast talks to interesting people in law enforcement who say, Hey Chaplain, I've got a story to tell and some hard-earned wisdom to share. As a patrol chaplain in Kansas City, I think you need to hear encouragement, even on difficult topics. Hey Chaplin is a free resource for everyone because of those supporters who are quietly helping behind the scenes. For some time now, there have been a small number of people, both inside law enforcement and outside, who have been giving as little as $5 a month to help pay the expenses of this show. If you want to help this show reach more cops, chaplains, and other first responders around the world, please follow the link in the episode description to support the show. Today we have a really interesting topic. I want police officers to understand why chaplains exist, and I also want chaplains to understand how they can serve better. One of the best ways to get it is to listen to this conversation with a chaplain who has the right attitude and character. Our guest today is Kevin Shive. Kevin is a police chaplain from Golden, Colorado, and he is also the founder and executive director of Serving the Shield, formerly Rocky Mountain Police and Fire Chaplains. Kevin is going to share some great chaplain stories from the front lines, but we are also going to talk about vetting and even dismissing people who may not be fit to be chaplains. Here's Kevin Shive. Hello, Kevin. How are you today? Doing good, Jared. I'm glad you're here today. You traveled a long way just to record here in Kansas City. Yes, just to be here with you. Kevin's actually here for a conference, and uh we stole away for just a few hours so we could record. And Kevin, I'd like to hear why you are a police chaplain?

SPEAKER_00 2:14

That's a loaded question, Jared. Um, one uh it has to probably start with why I became a pastor. Um, and it for me didn't want to. It was kind of the last thing that I really had on my horizon. And then all of a sudden, God flipped a switch. Like, and the switch was I want you to be around people. I want you to show people what it looks like to be a follower of Christ. I want you to get in the middle of their business. Um, I used to work for some bigger organizations that put on big conferences. And I still remember that moment where I looked out, there's 20,000 people, we had a number of God moments, and then they all left. And I had no idea what was going to be going on in their world after that. And that's, I think, where God started changing my heart of being more pastoral in my role. And then 19 years ago, the chief of police, Bill Kilpatrick, um, came to us as pastors in the community. We had had two suicides, and he had met with one of his officers who said, I think we should go and see if we can get these pastors to become chaplains. And from there, um, I was like, I'm just gonna give this a look. There's no way I would ever be accepted into becoming a chaplain because um if you know me or you're listening to this, and you're thinking, how did he ever become a pastor? For one. And then two, how in the world did this dude ever clear background checks? Because I I did some things in my youth that I'm not proud of. So when I actually had to sit down and write out all the stuff, you know, they ask you those questions. Have you ever done anything felonious or misdemeanor that you've not been caught for, that you've been caught for? We'll just say I had to ask for a few more pieces of paper for for my uh my truth verification process and the the lie detector and all that kind of jazz. Um, so I came kicking and screaming in a chaplaincy, too. I didn't want to do it because I was afraid of it. It was intimidating. They had guns, and let's just face it, uh cops are a little quirky. Yeah. You know, they they they got their own style of things. But then as I got into it, that switch clicked on again. And all of a sudden, I've found an affinity, a passion. I saw that this was the place that I could be missional in my minute. Like I'm standing in my congregation, I'm telling my people, you got to go out. Yes, you got to change the world. And I figured that might mean me too, right? So as a pastor, I should probably go and find that same way to accomplish the Great Commission and share uh this message of hope that we have.

SPEAKER_01 4:59

I've had the exact same thing. I am naturally an introvert. My energy is is exhausted dealing with people. And so you go through a Sunday morning and and you're so worn out by that as a pastor. And and so my inclination is to retreat to my office, hide behind all of my books, and come back out like you know, like the groundhog on groundhog day, and come back out on Sunday and preach and and genuinely love people, but get worn out by it. And so I found myself in a pattern 10 years ago of like, I am not engaged in my community at all. And and this police chaplain thing was in front of me for a long time. My predecessor had been a police chaplain, and so I'd known about it for years, and I thought, man, I think this is what I'm being called to do to get me out and engage people. And then kind of like you were saying, I mean, well, I didn't have the long list. In fact, my criminal background check is has been described as adorable, and so yeah, that's adorable, it's adorable, yeah. But I I I went in a place where I was a fish out of water, and and police can be a little hard to get to know. Uh, they're kind of standoffish. Uh, they will push you away to see if you can be pushed away. And so uh fortunately, God, I think, put it on my heart to love those people. And so I did not let myself be pushed away. And sounds like you're describing a very similar kind of dynamic.

SPEAKER_00 6:31

Absolutely. Um, I'm gonna share a story of what happened yesterday with a little backstory. Um, when I showed up, it was my first like we've gone through everything, we got the cool shirt that said chaplain on it. I'm walking through the halls, and this officer comes up and he's like, Who are you? I was like, I'm I'm Kevin, I'm your chaplain. And he put his hand on his gun and he looked me square in the eyes and he said, You're never getting in my effing car. And with my hand shaking, I was like, See, this is why I didn't want to do this. Um but fast forward, uh, I told this story yesterday to his eight-year-old son who we were baptizing at the creek. So you're gonna see the ending right there. A couple weeks later, he said, Hey, all right, you can get my car, but we're not talking about God. And the dude wouldn't shut up about God for two hours to the point where I actually had to stop and say, Hey, um, just so you know, you're the one asking all these questions. He had history channel and all these archaeological discoveries. And um, what I found out is he was a skeptic. Yeah, he was curious, which I think a lot of our cops are. Because if you're in this world for long enough, you see bad. Yeah. And you hope there's good. And I think that's what we as chaplains get to do. Fast forward a little bit more. He uh ends up meeting a gal and they're gonna get married, and then asks me to officiate the wedding. And I was like, hey, listen, if I'd love to, but the only re way I'll do it is if we do premarital counseling and end. I'm gonna ask you, where do you think God should be in your marriage? And he agreed to it. And so last night, um, at the creek behind the police station in Golden, Colorado, I baptized him, his wife, and his son. So from the cop putting his hand on his gun, you're never getting in my effing car to I'm baptizing him 19 years later. I think this is a great testimony to the impact that we can have, but also the skepticism. I mean, there's a lot of skeptical folks out there in law enforcement about what do chaplains really do.

SPEAKER_01 8:27

Yeah. Now, and I kind of feel that I can identify with that. I'm naturally skeptical. Now I'm a person of faith, but I don't believe everything. I mean, there's all kinds of wacky ideas out there that I scoff at and I think it's just the most ridiculous thing in the world. Now, I believe the Bible, but there's lots, like I said, a long list of things that I would I would be very, very skeptical of. And so I can I can relate to people who feel like they are constantly lied to and they're constantly searching for the truth to to solve a case or or what have you. And and I I I can identify with that. That that seems like common ground to me. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:11

Well, I I mean I'm skeptical too. You you don't be a pastor for 25 years and not be a little skeptical. I mean, there's times I joke with po folks in my church in Golden, it's like, I would love to do premarital counseling or I'd love to do like marriage counseling, but I need a taser, um, a ticket book, and a truth verification machine. And I guarantee you we would get a lot further along in these counseling sessions. It hasn't hasn't worked yet.

SPEAKER_01 9:36

Yeah, people lie to cops, people lie to pastors too.

SPEAKER_00 9:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:39

And uh they do frequently. And you get you can get kind of jaded and cynical about that, about people. Because that's another thing. People don't call the pastor because, you know, hey, I need to call you at one o'clock in the morning because things are going great. Right. We we don't get those calls. We we get calls when things are falling apart and they should have called us for help years ago, months ago, and instead they've waited till things have gotten catastrophically bad. Then they call us.

SPEAKER_00 10:06

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 10:06

And cops can identify with that.

SPEAKER_00 10:08

Yeah. I I mean, I think cops and pastors oddly are fairly close in some of the things that we do. Um, like one of the verses I use, um, it's right after John 3.16, but John 3.19, here's the verdict. Light has come into the world, but darkness does not want to see or participate in the light out of fear that its deeds would be exposed. And so I think like whoever gets a cop that pulls in behind them on the road, I don't care who you are, if a state patrol officer pulls in behind you, you're starting to worry. Yeah. You know, state patrol guys are gonna give their moms a ticket, right? Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah. And I think that's they're hardcore. They're hardcore. And if they if they got boots on and they're on a motorcycle, I mean you're getting a ticket no matter what. Um, but I I think that's that dynamic that we're similar because pastors shine light into worlds. Our officers run with lights and sirens into the darkest part of our communities. And in that, I think there is a biblical thing. Like we we talk about Romans 13, they're they're God's extension of his hand of justice. And actually, some versions call them avengers, which I'm like, they're superheroes. They literally are superheroes that are going out to protect the people that can't protect themselves.

SPEAKER_01 11:27

Yeah, that's great. So tell me what's it like to be a chaplain in Golden Colorado?

SPEAKER_00 11:35

I've come to the point where I've I've just decided that every place is about the same. Um, crime exists where people exist. That depravity of mankind is it's everywhere. And so um I love it because I get to really dig in and get to know these people in a way that otherwise I wouldn't. Going back to I mean, just chaplaining in the many different areas that we at Serving the Shield get to chaplain at. Um, one of the stories that just came to mind actually was our clinicians had called me up and uh they had one of our officers from a neighboring agency who had been involved in two shootings. Uh, this gal had shot two people in the matter of about a month and a half. And she was sitting there and talking to a counselor, and the counselor was unable to answer her questions because she started asking, Well, what does God think of me? I mean, God, God obviously can't be happy with me right now because I just shot two people. And so the counselor called me up and said, Hey, can you come by and help unpack this? And I was like, Absolutely. So got to go in, um, sat down and through that, brought up that verse, that Romans 13 verse. And I watched her countenance change because you you get to help her see that as an officer, you are the one and you're protecting people. And those who are doing right should have no fear over law enforcement, but those who do wrong should.

SPEAKER_01 12:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:00

And then she brought, she said, What isn't Jesus like all just love? And so then I took her to uh Revelation 19. And uh I said, Well, here's here's another picture of Jesus coming out of the clouds, riding on a horse with a sword out of his mouth, tattoos on his leg, King of Kings, Lord of Lords, and he's coming to tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. And she was like, That's Jesus? I was like, Yeah. And that's what sometimes you have to do as a cop. You have to tread the wine press of this wrath because God has put you here to protect people that can't protect themselves.

SPEAKER_01 13:37

If anyone's missing the metaphor there, the wine press are squeezing peep the blood out of people.

SPEAKER_00 13:43

And so, yeah, it's a it's a very bloody bloody squeeze. It is a very bloody word. Yeah, you might have to edit that out later. No, I mean, for me, most recently, we had um an officer who's killed in line of duty. Uh, his name's Evan Dunn from Missouri, actually Springfield. Um, his um wife I know from another agency that I work at, and it was just the worst. The worst night, the the night that everybody dreams and hopes would never happen. And I got a call from my chief at 519, and I just sat down with my wife for dinner, and he said, we got two officers trapped under a vehicle on highway 58, and I knew right away it's gonna be a long night. Uh, I knew that we were gonna have to be caring for a lot of people, and in route to the hospital, found out that one of them had died. We just didn't know which one at this point. Yeah, and so going into the hospital and seeing my officers who were still drenched in the blood of their comrade, their fellow officer, because they were on the ground with him, like holding his hand and comforting him, and then also comforting Bethany Gruzing.

SPEAKER_01 14:54

Can you describe the scenario? Is it is it a highway accident? Is it a mountain road? Is it a what what's what's the scenario?

SPEAKER_00 15:01

It feels a little mountain-y. It's right in the one of the main sections of Gold, and it was a snowy night. And so there was a there was a traffic accident that had occurred and some motorist assists that were going on. So multiple vehicles. We had staged cars well far enough away for anybody to see our lights, so they could slow down. It's snowing, they should slow down anyways. And then an individual who had been drinking for most of the day, we didn't know that at the time, but we found that out pretty quickly after just looking at all of the evidence that he had been a pretty professional drinker, and he just was going probably 20 or 30 over what he should have been doing at the time, rounded the corner and just smashed into the vehicle, um, trapping our two officers and also really seriously injuring two pedestrians that were there as well. And uh yeah, and so it took it took time. That's a messy situation in a lot of different ways. Um, our our fire department also is the ones that are responding and trying to lift a vehicle off of someone that we're pretty sure it was killed instantly.

SPEAKER_01 16:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:08

Um, but then another officer who is uh alive and awake and aware of everything that's going on, but wants to get out from that car as bad as possible. Yeah. And that was that was tense. So showing up at the hospital, um, I'm with my people, and I had someone come up and say, Hey, you need to go talk to this guy. His name's Tanner, and he's Bethany's boyfriend. I'd never met Tanner. And uh, I stood with him at the doorway when they wheeled Bethany in, and we both saw her for the first time. And I think we both would look back and say, we didn't think she was gonna do well at this moment. Um so they rushed her around and you know, checking every vital and took her up for a CT scan and all that kind of stuff, and I had to give him a hug because now we have to go to um my officer's widow's home and deliver the news to her. So me and my chief went and uh spent the the evening with her and just making sure that she got what she needed and got friends and family. I called someone from work to make sure that they were there to just care for her. I mean, that was the hardest moment, but then you fast forward um and then I got to do Bethany and Tanner's wedding. You know, and so the worst is how much time after the accident? It was within a year. Okay, yeah. And so they got engaged six or seven months later, and then marriage in Estes Park and just this gorgeous you know, taking taking things that are um dead and bringing it to life.

SPEAKER_01 17:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:39

And I feel like that's a lot of what we as chaplains do. We have to take the worst scenario and try to help make sense, even when it's nonsensical. Yeah, it shouldn't happen. But that's I think where chaplains really thrive is in that moral injury where you think the world ought to look this way and now all of a sudden it looks different.

SPEAKER_01 17:59

Yeah. Well, and uh helping makes sense sometimes. And I'm I'm a teacher, I I want to explain things, and I I do that sometimes. Other times though, I'm just sitting shiva. I I am I am just there, I'm present, and and yeah, this is bad, and it's ugly, and it's tragic, and and no one thinks otherwise. But we're in this together, and we're going to to be in this moment, and and we're just we're just strong for each other. And my officers are strong for me, and I'm strong for them, and and we're just going to get through this. And there's not really any words in some of those cases. Um but but in both cases, we're we're helping in a way that is not always available to officers. A lot of times officers go through something tragic and they have no answers, no explanations, no comfort, no presence of anybody that that understands. And I think that's what chaplains do. Absolutely. So I've heard you tell a story that exemplified um uh it was the washing wiping the blood off the officers' boots.

SPEAKER_00 19:14

Yeah. No, I mean it was a rough night. Um we basically had two pit bulls that got loose and mauled an 80-year-old grandma that they belonged to, same family, and attacked kids as well. And our cops showed up and do what our cops do. They made the scene safe. But they were unable to use um their their guns. They had to go to less lethal because there were houses behind it. So they're basically standing side by side to this 80-year-old grandma who has been eaten, laying beanbags into these dogs to keep them at bay so that they could actually get in and get her out. I I made it to the PD as they were coming back, and they were cleaning, cleaning them stuff themselves off. You know, they got blood on them, and as you would in a situation like this. And so I just grabbed the wet wipes and said, Let me help. Let me help get you clean, and got on my hands and knees and started cleaning blood off of one of my officers' boots. And I could feel that the teardrops, you know, not a lot, but there were one or two. And I looked at them and they had to go be back operational. Yeah. Because they had to get back out, but we just wanted to do a quick little get together, and that was revolutionary for me. I mean, that's the the epitome of what chaplains do. Yeah. We're servants. We're gonna serve our officers, their families, their kids, and sometimes the most difficult thing, and I didn't say a word. I got on my knees and and just started cleaning, right? Yeah. Yeah, and I don't think I could have said anything that would have made that better, like what you were saying in that moment, just that presence of being there.

SPEAKER_01 20:48

But it moved those officers emotionally.

SPEAKER_00 20:52

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:52

That you were present as a chaplain.

SPEAKER_00 20:55

Very much. Absolutely. Yeah. And I've seen that time and time again. We we have a combined SWAT team, and um, you know, when you have a shooting, the command shows up, lawyers show up, and all they're talking about is liability, what's going on. I show up and I'm like, what do you need? And some of my I remember this one very distinctly. SWAT commander, I looked him in the eye, I was like, what do you need? And he's like, I need Skittles and energy drinks right now. And I was like, I can do that, right? Um, another instant, I had a we had three of our officers involved in the shooting. This one hit the news. So I've got spouses calling me now because they had everything taken away because they had been shot at, there was blood everywhere. The news is reporting that a golden officer has been shot, but I'm with all three of them, confirming that they're not having to tell spouses they're fine. Right. And one of my guys, he liked chewing Copenhagen. Yeah, you know, but they took that away too. And he was just sitting in there, he's like, I he was so frustrated because that was his no pun intended, his coping mechanism. Um and so I looked at the chief. I was like, I'm gonna go buy him a can of Cope. We're gonna go out and walk because he needs to get out of this room or we're gonna cause more trauma. And so that that was an instance for me where I'm showing up, I'm just seeing the person. I'm not worried about the shoot. I'm not worried about the tactics. I'm just walking and standing in front of you, and I'm saying, what do you need right now?

SPEAKER_01 22:24

Talk to me about organizing chaplains. Uh, you guys got asked almost 20 years ago, hey, come in here and be chaplains for us. Um, how did that develop and what's been your role?

SPEAKER_00 22:35

Yeah, it's it's been an amazing journey and lots of ups and downs, but we have seen God's favor, as I think we're seeing probably across the United States, a favor towards people accepting and being more open to having spiritual care. In the early years, I had no idea what I was doing. So I cut my teeth with ICPC. I did my first ride-along in Grand Rapids at one of their events, and it was great. But then realized that there just wasn't a lot of ICPC in our region. So we just decided let's create something. And in creating it, having the opportunity to really define what we were creating and excellence was one of the big things: consistency, responsibility, um, ministry of presence. Having the I like our cops train all the time, yeah, regularly. And we got to make sure that we're not providing chaplains that aren't prepared, that come ill-equipped. We want to make sure that we provide to these agencies the the highest level of individual that's going to be caring for them and sometimes their worst moment. And so we just started dreaming and really started with probably four or five different agencies in our in our area, and it has grown. We just had our annual meeting. We had 200 some people attend, 30 partners, 10 states. And so my goal is just to continue moving forward, organizing in such a way where our officers are truly getting, their families are truly getting what they deserve. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 24:12

Best care possible. So did this start in Golden specifically? It did. Okay. And then it became a Rocky Mountain kind of regional.

SPEAKER_00 24:23

It did. It became pretty apparent we had the Aurora Theater shooting. And I'm calling out there to Aurora PD and Aurora chaplains, and they wouldn't answer my call and wouldn't call me back. And then a short time in that window, we also had these big floods in the Boulder County. And I'm calling up um the lead chaplain for the Boulder County Sheriff's Office, and he wouldn't call me back. And then I realized there's no relationship here. And so the start of it was we've got to get together. We've got to all recognize we're on the same team. So, Jared, you as a chaplain here in Kansas City, you represent me and Golden. If you do something here, it's going to be negatively or positively part of how people see chaplaincy all across the United States. And so that was a start. Like, let's get organized, let's network together so that when I do call these people, they're going to say, hey, Kev, yeah, we could use your help, but the only reason they're going to open that up to allow me to be around their people to build this out in a way. Now we've got regions. We've got about 15 regions in just Colorado. And then we've got state coordinators in each of the 10 states that we're working with because I want to make sure that the French fries tastes the same everywhere, right? And so that's quality control. Yeah. Really hard to do. But if you walk into a Chick-fil-A or you go through a Chick-fil-A drive-thru, I mean, they're just they're they're on it, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:45

It's going to be the same everywhere.

SPEAKER_00 25:46

It's going to be the same. And you walk into a McDonald's and every McDonald's smells the same. Their French fries tastes the same. I think that we owe it to our folks to create and have that expectation of ourselves as chaplains. And sometimes it's okay to say you don't, you shouldn't be a chaplain. Like, like this doesn't fit. And I love your heart and you're a good person, but this is a very unique calling. It is very special in a way that you've you've got to make sure that you are made out of the right material to be able to get in a car and drive 100 miles an hour towards chaos.

SPEAKER_01 26:21

I've seen a lot of chaplains where I'm suspicious of why they're interested.

SPEAKER_00 26:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:27

And I kind of, you know, say stereotypically, the one that always stands out is the one that kind of wants to be a cop.

SPEAKER_00 26:33

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 26:34

And and that's like, boy, they must have missed the academy or got kicked out of the academy or whatever. And and they they are trying to fulfill something that's missing. Absolutely. And that that always sets me on edge a little bit. I was never I was never someone to want to be a cop. I didn't even play cops and robbers as a kid. That was just not an interest I ever had. I've I was not ever thinking about law enforcement. Now I dearly love them, but I don't want to be them.

unknown 27:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:05

I want to be what I'm doing. Right. And so and so that's a difficult that that's a distinct line that needs to be respected. And occasionally I'll run into a chaplain that doesn't seem like they're aware of that line. Yeah. And and they think they are the super secret squirrel, super sleuth. That bothers me. It should. It should bother you. Yeah, I don't know how to address that. I mean, how I mean you've you've dealt with this before.

SPEAKER_00 27:35

We have. We we deal with it a couple different ways. It was pretty disappointing when I started. We were trying to expand, we had meet with different agencies, and I'd sit down with chiefs and commanders, and I'd ask them, like, what are you the most afraid of? And they would say, We don't want any weirdos. Right. I mean, after the 12th time, I thought to myself, what are we doing? Like we're presenting ourselves to this environment as being a bunch of weirdos.

SPEAKER_01 28:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:04

Um, my first year was pretty funny. My chief at the time um was agnostic at best. And we got a chief star that first year. And I still tease him to this day. He works out at the rec center. But it it basically was, I thought you might be good, kind of, but I was really worried. I took a risk on you and you didn't screw it up. Thank you. Here's the chief star. And I was like, what a but what a great thing. So maybe some of the training that we do is deprogramming.

SPEAKER_01 28:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:32

Because as a pastor or even as a former law enforcement officer, I'm hoping that there's some cops out there that might actually want to be chaplains in the future. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 28:40

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 28:40

But you can't become a chaplain as a cop to fix the problems and the things you didn't do right. Yeah. There is a calling to it. And yes, you might fix some of those things, but your agenda has got to be pure purely driven not to be selfish in the matter. Yeah. For pastors, like in your pulpit, Jared, you can say whatever you want, right? And if people don't like it, what do they do?

SPEAKER_01 29:01

They can leave.

SPEAKER_00 29:02

They can leave.

SPEAKER_01 29:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:03

But as a chaplain, I serve at the pleasure of the chief or the sheriff. So I've got to understand what their expectations are. And we talk about this thing called the Daniel principle. Daniel in the Bible served multiple kings from uh Judea to Babylonian to Persian. And how did he do it? Why did he do it? Well, he never defiled himself. And he always maintained himself as a man of tact and wisdom. And in that, I think people just kept saying, Where's that guy? I we can't answer this question. Someone go find that guy or that gal. And I think for us as chaplains, you want to be that rather than the weirdo. Um, so we do oral boards. No one comes into our system without going through a background check, without filling out an application, without going through an oral board. And if it's with an agency, we'll usually bring the most skeptical cop. Like bring the guy that's going to put his hand on his gun and say, You're never getting into my effing car, right? Um, he needs to sit on that oral board because they're going to be able to have that sniff test to be able to tell whether or not this individual is authentic and truly wants to do it for the right reasons.

SPEAKER_01 30:11

Is there a point at which you've trained and invested and somebody has passed enough background checks that they if they fail and they become weird again, they just need to be retrained. Or is is there ever a point? Is there is anybody capable of just going off the rails enough that that they need to stop being a chaplain?

SPEAKER_00 30:33

Yes. I mean, obviously we want to retrain. We all need to be trained. We all might have something that's gone in our lives that we've just but nobody, but nobody gets chaplain tenure. Nobody gets they shouldn't. I don't think they should. If you're not capable of doing the job any longer, and I think there's seasons in chaplaincy, like you and I are kind of, can I say we're in our prime?

SPEAKER_01 30:54

Yeah. I'm still in my 40s. And so yeah. I'm older than you.

SPEAKER_00 30:58

I might, I might be more on my downhill turn. But I I feel like my role is to be someone that's going to then prop up the younger chaplains. I think we need younger chaplains. We need 35. That's when I started at 35. It was a great age. Yeah. Um, but yeah, if you're doing things wrong, and I think some agencies are afraid, well, we don't want to tick off God, and they're only volunteers, so we'll put up with it. At the harm of really caring for our officers, staff, and families. My response would be no, get get better people.

SPEAKER_01 31:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:33

And so, like I literally was in a in an interview one time with this guy. You can cut this out if you don't like this story. But we were interviewing in the city, part of their policy was they had to send out a citywide email, which is the best way to get all the weirdos. Yeah. Right. Yeah. So generally, what we do is we'll ask cops, okay, hey, do you go to a church and do you like your pastor, or do you have a ministry coordinator there? One of my best chaplains, her name's Ashley. She was a children's ministry coordinator. Later, I found out that she did um worked with sex traffickers in Los Angeles. So she had this background. I sat down with her. I'm like, you're a children's ministry coordinator? Why do you want to be a chat? It just didn't jive for me. But she was a woman of character.

SPEAKER_01 32:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:17

And so we're not always going after senior pastors, we're going after men's and women's ministry leaders, those that have put the time in that have character. And that goes back to the Daniel principle. He was a man of character.

SPEAKER_01 32:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:30

And so we want to find those people. And I feel like if you find folks with character, um, you can train them how to do the tactics of chaplaincy.

SPEAKER_01 32:38

What disqualifies a chaplain?

SPEAKER_00 32:41

I I think the disqualification would be jeopardizing the character in which they're supposed to hold. You are an ambassador of hope. You are someone that represents God. And we we really push that we don't want to be proselytizing, we don't want to be evangelizing, but chaplains need to be a witness.

SPEAKER_01 33:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:02

You know, so 1 Peter 3:15, always be prepared to give an account of the hope that you have when people ask. And so that's that dynamic of showing up in these agencies and being a witness. I think the the best compliment I got after walking through Evan Dunn's death and Bethany Gruesing's injury, and they just said we saw you and we just felt peace. We just knew you brought peace to the situation, a calmness and a security. And so I think that's what we want to watch for in people. Like if you lose that, yeah, if you start showing up and it's becoming more chaotic, yes. If you're showing up and you feel like it's about you, then you're missing the picture.

SPEAKER_01 33:44

Yeah. That's what I fear too with new chaplains, because a lot of clergy are used to being upfront in the spotlight with everybody's attention on them. And that can be a drug that's hard to kick. If you can be a chaplain, it means that you can be behind the scenes, you can be incognito and and be okay with that.

SPEAKER_00 34:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:10

That that when you're doing this very meaningful, important work and the television crew shows up and they're like, excuse me, sir, because they're trying to get to what they think the story is, and you're okay with it. Yes. You don't need to stop and say, No, no, no, wait. You should hear my commentary. You should see the work I'm doing. Right. You have to be able to resist that, even though your day job, maybe at a church, may be to give commentary. Yes. But but that's not your role as a chaplain. And I'm looking for the men and women who get that and can understand that. And they can get on their hands and knees and wipe the blood off of an officer's boots. Yes. Kevin, thank you for coming in today and uh making that incredibly long trip just to see me. Just to see you. I appreciate it. You're that important, Jared.

SPEAKER_00 35:05

You're that important.

SPEAKER_01 35:07

Thank you. I want to thank Kevin for being on the show. And I especially want to thank him for the work that he's doing. Serving the SHIELD is teaching and guiding chaplains to help them understand what the mission of First Responder Chaplaincy really is. They're doing all kinds of good work in training and giving support to chaplain organizations around the country. If you want to find out more information about Kevin and about Serving the Shield, you can find that at servingtheshield.com. The views expressed here are the personal views of the host and our guest and do not necessarily represent the views of any law enforcement agency or its components. If you like this episode, please share it with a cop or someone who loves a cop. Thank you for listening to Hey Chaplin. And as always, let's pray for peace in our cities.